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TSO
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Reged: 10/26/10
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Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon?
      #152139 - 05/25/11 12:19 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/hig...M59G_story.html

I really hope this doesn't happen here. I think it is a joke it is happening anywhere. The reason Europe and South America are ahead of us in soccer has more to do with the fact that it is their #1 sport and all the inner city kids play it, not because we balance club and HS. Most players here would rather play xbox then go practice by themselves for hours at a time like basketball players.

If AAU and high school basketball can coexist, I see no reason academy and high school soccer can't as well. The atmosphere is much better in school sports and it is a great experience.


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Bearcat28
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: TSO]
      #152146 - 05/25/11 01:48 PM

It'll happen soon enough may take a couple years to get the east coast regions to go along with it, but it will eventually come to this point I have a feeling. Its a double edge sword it has pros and cons to both sides meaning HS coaches and fans will hate it, academy teams will love it. Guess time will tell!

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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Bearcat28]
      #152147 - 05/25/11 02:04 PM

Even if that does happen in South Carolina, high school soccer isn't going to disappear. Only the top 1% (just a guess) play at that academy level. If they weren't allowed to play high school, that would open up a few spots for other kids and might level the playing field a little for middle of the pack schools like mine.

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Stratford High School
Boys Soccer


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Backscreen17
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152150 - 05/25/11 02:42 PM

A case can be made either way.
Current Wando players on the 2011-12 Academy U16 and U18 rosters (with apologies to any I may have missed):
Carlin, Cepeda, Clark, Danna, Davis, Eskinazi, Jablonski, King, Wichmann.
Among other high schools represented are Irmo, Cardinal Newman, Fort Dorchester, Carolina Forest, South Aiken, Myrtle Beach, Bishop England, James Island, etc. Again, this isn't ALL of the high schools represented.
I don't have the Academy rosters in front of me, but I'm thinking we're talking about a grand total of fewer than 40 kids on the two teams, including several from Georgia.
So yes, the field may be leveled in terms of a small group of schools with maximum exposure to Academy training.
I would ask though: Is the idea to "level" the field by effectively reducing the H.S. talent pool, or SHOULD IT BE for laggard high school programs to dig in and improve by hiring competent, committed staff?
Discuss.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152151 - 05/25/11 02:45 PM

By the way, Alister, that wasn't a shot at you or Stratford, 'cause I know you and your kids are busting it. But Goose Creek certainly comes to mind.

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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152153 - 05/25/11 03:14 PM

By no means did I take that as a shot at my program. I understand what you are saying. I hate the idea that these kids might be made to choose one over the other. Personally, I hate the misconception that kids can't get recruited playing on "average" club and high school teams. Sure it might take a little more work but kids can get into college and play. I have kids in my program that believe they need to spend thousands and thousands of dollars per season to play on these academy teams in order to be seen. Sure some of the kids on these teams are going to get full rides to some of the big schools but most will end up with partial scholarships to smaller schools. I know parents that have spent upwards of $10,000 for their kid to play club and the kids ended up with a $1500 scholarship to a small division 2 school.
Sorry...got off track..
Watering down the talent pool isn't what I want. I would rather never win a region championship than to see that happen.

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Alister DeLong
Stratford High School
Boys Soccer


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Anthony Pelton
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152158 - 05/25/11 04:40 PM

Given the atmosphere during the playoffs(even when fighting for region championships) and especially during state finals, the technical training and coaching available at alot of the top schools, the team relationships forged representing your school, the Academy people may be surprised at decisions young men may make if forced into a corner.
Many of the strong Academy players have been contacted by College's(by the time they are sophomores in some cases)and offers extended---so what would be the enticement of staying?
Let's see?--weekends off, still get to play for my high school, my parents save a ton of $--perhaps some of which they may send my way.


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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152162 - 05/25/11 05:38 PM

Quote:


I would ask though: Is the idea to "level" the field by effectively reducing the H.S. talent pool, or SHOULD IT BE for laggard high school programs to dig in and improve by hiring competent, committed staff?
Discuss.




I think it would be interesting to see if the dynamic would change if high school soccer programs competed like high school football programs--each high school coaching staff entirely responsible for training and coaching its own players. No matter how committed a staff is, a mostly stand-alone program is at a distinct disadvantage when faced with an equally committed program whose players ALSO are trained and compete at a high level during the other months of the year--not just during the allowed high school training/competition season.

I understand entirely what you mean about the need for high school programs to have competent, committed staff, and I couldn't agree more--and given the nature of soccer competition, programs can help "level the playing field" not only by working towards maximum player development within their own programs, but also by encouraging rather than discouraging players to participate in activities and opportunities--even outside their own programs--that provide for positive player development and experience.

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Belligerent
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach Chass]
      #152165 - 05/25/11 06:42 PM

Coach Pelton, I realize this is just an example, but are you asking what would be the enticement for staying in the Academy (versus, I suppose, playing solely for his/her high school team) for a high school sophomore who has already committed to a particular college?

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Anthony Pelton
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Belligerent]
      #152166 - 05/25/11 07:14 PM

Admitidly, I am not sure of the Academy format, but I am assuming they are playing in the Fall and Spring. I don't question that the individual talent level in Academy is probably superior, but geography must limit training schedules to some extent.
How much is a player(already commited to a D1 school) really missing being able to train daily with a Wando or Irmo or NW(or a similar program in the Spring)vs limited training with Academy teams. Not much I think.
I apologise ahead of time if my understanding of the Academy format is in error.


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SoccerLooney
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152180 - 05/25/11 10:29 PM

Very interesting subject indeed. The way I have always looked at this and the reason I see a real benefit for some players to only play academy and not high school is that there is more soccer development momentum in the academy program. High school soccer is lots of fun for the kids and no one can discount that. The joy of competing in front of your peers week after week and enjoying the accolades in the lunch room cannot be matched by the academy experience. However, for players who are talented as the academy players generally are, the high school season for the most part is an interruption of a highly optimized training regimen that is neccessary for players to achieve their highest potential. There are a couple of reasons why this is so.
1. For high school soccer the, emphasis is on winning as opposed to development.
2. Since the academy players are generally more developed than their fellow high school players, the coach will not focus on their development needs in high school because they will have their hands full with other needy players.
3. The academy players will not be pushed in practice or in the majority of games to play at a high level because of a lack of skill in their team mates and in the opposition.

Yes we are lagging behind in soccer development when compared to europe. In europe once a kid is identified as having soccer potential, they are given a lot of structured assistance to develop that potential to its highest level. Indeed some kids drop off, that will always happen, but atleast they are given a chance to really focus their efforts on becoming a professional soccer player. For successful development, it is crucial that the soccer player masters a certain aspect of their development at each stage. By 13yrs of age, the soccer player should have sound technical skills for first touch, ball striking, passing and dribbling. By the time they are 17 they should have a good mastery of tactical play, positioning for different formations, moving, cutting off passing lanes. The successfully developed player will need so much time to master these skills at a high level. We know that these kids still need to be in school and get a good education. If they are to have any chance to compete with the international kids they need all the extra time to be focused on highly organized training.
High School soccer greatly interrupts the needed development process for academy players and significantly impacts their ability to maximize their full soccer potential by hindering sustained development.


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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: SoccerLooney]
      #152186 - 05/26/11 08:19 AM

Just a few questions. I, like Coach Pelton, am not familiar with the Academy system. I coached in the Aiken Soccer Club for a number of years before moving back to Charleston and I saw an Aiken Fire Team in the early 2000's that had some of the best youth players I have ever seen. Some went on to play at some big Division 1 schools (Furman, Kentucky). This was before the Academy concept but was the beginning of the Super Y days

Is it the goal of the academy programs to develop professional soccer players? If not, what is the goal?
If they don't make it to that level, was the program a failure?
How many players from the state of SC in the past 10-15 years have made it to a professional level?
(I see Zach Prince from Irmo playing in a part time role for the Battery.)

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Stratford High School
Boys Soccer


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Talon
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152187 - 05/26/11 08:46 AM

S.C. pros since 1995 that I know of:

Hunter Gilstrap, Lexington HS (Clemson/Charleston) -- Pittsburgh Riverhounds, Cleveland City Stars, Maritzburg United, Miami FC
Erik Ozimek, Spring Valley HS (Maryland/Davidson) -- San Jose Earthquakes, DC United, Portland Timbers, Atlanta Silverbacks, Charlotte Eagles
Zach Prince, Irmo HS (Charleston) -- Charleston Battery
Troy Lesesne, Brookland-Cayce HS (Charleston) -- Charleston Battery, Wilmington Hammerheads
John Wilson, Seneca HS (Clemson) -- Charleston Battery, Kansas City Wizards, Rochester Rhinos, DC United


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HappyDaddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152192 - 05/26/11 09:16 AM

I'm President of SCUtd FC Development Academy - but this is my personal opinion and not a club position:

USSF created the Development Academy after studying many youth soccer programs around the world. The aim is to develop a broader, deeper and better pool of men's soccer players from which our national teams can draw. The focus is on player development - full stop. Team performance (wins and losses) is only incidental to that focus, and not a focus in itself. The Federation is much more interested in how many players a club places in a national team pool than it is in the number of games a team or club wins.

Academy clubs are about identifying and training the best players they can find and giving them the opportunity to play a game schedule that is highly competitive and challenging each and every time. No one expects many Academy players from any particular club to make national teams or play professionally, but some will. Because they tend to be the best of the best, nearly all will play in college if they want to do so. Most colleges, particularly D1, now focus almost exclusively on the DA. Any exceptions just serve to prove the rule. All one has to do is look at the commitment lists and the clubs from which the players are coming.

In my opinion, HS soccer impedes the development of elite players. It is an interregnum of generally poor competition where even the very best teams only play a handful (if that) of competitive games in 20+ game season. That said, there are other factors (school spirit, playing with and in front of friends, etc.) worth considering. I have no idea whether those factors will carry the day in the long-run on the HS/no HS debate. For me, the question is: Is it "better" for a young man to play what amounts to an all-star game every weekend or not? I say - yes. But, reasonable minds can differ.


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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: HappyDaddy]
      #152196 - 05/26/11 10:02 AM

Thank you HappyDaddy for that explanation.
I love high school soccer and what it stands for but understand that it isn't the best competition. Wando has won our region 10 years in a row and could continue to win it for the next 10 years (it helps they have twice the student body as us but that is a different story for a different day).

Developing players is great but when does winning become important? Don't players need to learn how to win? You can't tell me that Wando kids didn't benefit more from winning 20+ they did versus playing in an academy league in which they have a .500 or losing record.
"You play to win the game" Herman Edwards. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

How much does the average kid pay to play in SCUtd FC Development Academy?

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Alister DeLong
Stratford High School
Boys Soccer


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Backscreen17
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152198 - 05/26/11 10:20 AM

Alister,

FWIW, there was a significant period of time when Stratford's enrollment matched Wando's (pre-Cane Bay). That said, you guys were hurt by some defection to Pinewood, much as Wando basketball lost a bunch of kids to preps in the early 2000s.

The SC Academy sides generally win more than they lose. For example, both the U18 and U16 sides won versus Atlanta Fire this past weekend in Buford, GA.

The player development vs. winning discussion is a long-time conundrum for minor league baseball, where major league teams groom prospects. My opinion is, "development" comes first, but is most readily achieved in a positive, winning environment. That is, the best of both worlds.


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IH8KATZ
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: HappyDaddy]
      #152199 - 05/26/11 10:20 AM

Quote:

In my opinion, HS soccer impedes the development of elite players. It is an interregnum of generally poor competition where even the very best teams only play a handful (if that) of competitive games in 20+ game season. That said, there are other factors (school spirit, playing with and in front of friends, etc.) worth considering. I have no idea whether those factors will carry the day in the long-run on the HS/no HS debate. For me, the question is: Is it "better" for a young man to play what amounts to an all-star game every weekend or not? I say - yes. But, reasonable minds can differ.



My question is if the aim of the Development Academy is to identify the best players then why doesn't it do just that? I can tell you by looking at the current rosters for the DA that there are a number of players not listed that are clearly better than the ones playing. As for player development, do you really get any better playing a bunch of scoreless draws? It's fine to be able to go side to side, but there are goals at each end for a (the) reason!

Quote:

High School soccer greatly interrupts the needed development process for academy players and significantly impacts their ability to maximize their full soccer potential by hindering sustained development.



BS! If you cannot be a "star" at the high school level - if you are clearly an elite player - then you can forget about "player development". I saw Cardinal Newman play this year and didn't see anything wrong with the "development" of Koty or Nestor. Same goes for a lot of others like Burkholder at Wando and Freiburger at Lexington and they are going to D1 soccer programs.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: IH8KATZ]
      #152202 - 05/26/11 10:25 AM

IH:
While I agree that the Academy doesn't have "all" of the "best" players (for whatever reasons), I would argue that the sheer number of Academy-trained kids at Wando, Irmo, Cardinal Newman, Pinewood and Myrtle Beach contributed MIGHTILY to those programs' success during the recently concluded season.


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Backscreen17
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152203 - 05/26/11 10:29 AM

For example, all 4 goals in the Class AAAA title game were scored by Academy kids, and except for Burkholder's great long throw, assisted by Academy kids.

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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152205 - 05/26/11 10:40 AM

Backscreen, you are correct about enrollment. I started at Stratford 5 years ago at the beginning of the decine in attendance and we didn't lose anything to Cane Bay that would help us. Stratford's bigger issue is not enough kids playing competative club soccer in the fall.

How long has the academy program been around?

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Stratford High School
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Coach J
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152206 - 05/26/11 10:55 AM

I have to ask or point out , the academy rosters are quite large, only 11 play and they are only allowed a roster of 18 for games, and limited subs.( 3 per match I believe unless showcase tournament) How are the ones not playing in the matches developing? I would hate to pay the fees that are required and my kid does not get to play. If you look at mins played per match,for each rostered player, you will see that most of the same kids are playing, IMHO that means they are trying to win. There is no way you are going to tell me that Clark does not want to win every match. Parents want them to win as well.

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HappyDaddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach J]
      #152207 - 05/26/11 11:40 AM

Full time players are required to start a minimum of 25% of the games in a season. There are seven substitutions allowed per game, with no reentry. I think you will find that the healthy full time players play between 40-90% of the minutes in a season.

I assume that any elite athlete and coach wants and tries to win any competitive match in which he participates. But, that isn't the focus or the point of the DA. It is a subtle but important difference. I can assure you that our coaches know exactly what the Federation expects (demands) from its DA clubs - player development. Of course there is an element of teamwork and competitiveness in player development, but winning and losing games is seen as an incident of that development, not the point of it. A club that regularly places kids on national teams and national team pools and finishes mid-table is going to be viewed more favorably by the Federation than one that wins all of the time and doesn't produce those players.

It is also important to remember that the Federation mandates training at least three (preferably four) days per week in season. The quality of the training sessions is evaluated at least as closely as is game performance.

The cost is comparable to the cost of a Premier League team that plays three or four out of state tournaments (incl Regionals). There are a reasonable number of need based scholarships available each year.


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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152208 - 05/26/11 11:52 AM

Quote:

Developing players is great but when does winning become important? Don't players need to learn how to win? You can't tell me that Wando kids didn't benefit more from winning 20+ they did versus playing in an academy league in which they have a .500 or losing record.
"You play to win the game" Herman Edwards. Sorry, I couldn't resist.




Alister, not sure I entirely agree. You develop for the purpose of winning, but winning doesn't necessarily serve the purpose of development. Speaking from experience on both sides, I've seen players develop a lot more between the beginning and end a .500 or worse season than during a total winning season. When you're constantly winning you don't have the incentive to step up. Of course every time you step on the field you play your best to win--it's the only way, I think--but if you know you HAVE to step up to avoid losing, that's where a lot of the actual development comes in.

Just one guy's opinion.

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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach Chass]
      #152212 - 05/26/11 12:43 PM

Development can/must occur during training, with some enhancement during matches. Which kind of goes back to the original question of Academy vs. High School. Due to the sheer depth of quality, Academy training sessions are arguably more challenging than MOST high school sessions.

Personally, I think there's plenty of room for BOTH, and a constructive need for coexistence!


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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152213 - 05/26/11 12:58 PM

Development is great. I love development. Maybe when I hear the world "development" I have a different definition.

The Academy program was created to help the US National Team player pool. I might be wrong but I think the Academy team in Mt. Pleasant is only U-16 and U-18. The best player in the world right now is 22 years old. He has been one of the top 5 players in the world for several years now. Isn't our system of identifying kids a little late? European kids are identified and brought in at younger ages to train in the youth systems so they train daily, almost like boarding schools. By the time our players are identified, they have missed out on years of "development" at the level they need to be developed with the truly "elite" players.

I am just raising points that I have heard from fellow coaches and parents. I appreciate the friendly conversation. I have two players that are in the academy "pool" currently and wish them all the best. Them playing there will hopefully make them better players and my team better. I just hope the program is what it is advertised to be and not a way for one club in the lowcountry to try to compete with CESA for state championships because then it wouldn't be about development, it would be about winning.

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Alister DeLong
Stratford High School
Boys Soccer

Edited by Alister DeLong (05/26/11 01:01 PM)


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152215 - 05/26/11 01:03 PM

A couple of things. First, I've heard there will be a Junior Academy or pre-Academy side and training for younger kids this year. So, effectively, Academy will begin with a de facto U14 side. Second, I don't sense this is a compete-with-CESA or better-than-CESA activity. I think of it as a legitimate option for a kid with a requisite level of skill and commitment. Lots of great players/kids still play for CESA or other clubs.

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Will Eudy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152219 - 05/26/11 01:28 PM

Allister,

I agree with you concept that the best players in the world are identified at a younger age. BUT the US had to start somewhere right? It is the first step for US Soccer. You will see with the U14 league that the emphasis will be placed on younger players.

From a HS standpoint, I cant imagine how your team would get worse from having academy players. It is truly another level.


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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Will Eudy]
      #152227 - 05/26/11 02:08 PM

Will,
We do have to start somewhere and I am glad that this program exsists. I am not bashing it's existance and what they are trying to do. I just am asking questions and raising some concerns. Plus I am at work bored
I grew up in the Charleston area playing for Trident United (with the stop light uniforms as one of my friends likes to point out) and its intention was to put together "all star" type teams.

As far as HS, kids playing at a high level is great for me. What is going to hurt my high school team is the 12 seniors plus 3 kids I have moving.

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Alister DeLong
Stratford High School
Boys Soccer


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Belligerent
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152228 - 05/26/11 02:24 PM

Coach Pelton, to try and answer your earlier question as to what might be the enticement for staying in the Academy for a high school sophomore who has already committed to a particular college; I would say if that high school sophomore wanted to keep his scholarship money (assuming he has been offered some amount) and/or wishes to still have his name on that team's roster come freshman year at that college, then that's (some of) the enticement he's looking at. Any offer from a college to a high school player I would assume has to be dependent on that player continuing to develop until they enter that college.

The following is of course an extreme example, but let's say a high school sophomore has verbally committed to college X, and the coach of college X has verbally committed to giving this player a half-scholarship to his school. Now let's say this player figures, "heck, I am IN, why should I keep busting my tail?" He then quits is regular team and joins rec league. (my apologies if anything in my example is considered any kind of violation)

Not knowing exactly what kind of situation you were thinking about, maybe you were thinking of a kid who was not playing Academy at the time he committed to this college, and you're asking what would be the enticement to start playing Academy. I do know of one player who committed to a Division I school whose coach basically told him he would be playing Academy his senior year in high school. There is another who is also committed to a Division I school who was "highly encouraged" to play Academy (to what extent, I'm not sure, but he is currently playing Academy). Not sure if that answered your question or not.

Coach DeLong, regarding your comment "You can't tell me that Wando kids didn't benefit more from winning 20+ they did versus playing in an academy league in which they have a .500 or losing record." How much do you think these players benefitted from a 5-0 win over James Island, an 8-1 win over West Ashley and a 9-0 win over Goose Creek? I would think not a whole lot. The second and third stringers probably got a good bit of playing time in those games, though.

IH, regarding your comment about player development, and "do you really get any better playing a bunch of scoreless draws?" The U16s have had no scoreless matches this season, while the U18s have had 4 (out of 23). Three of these were against IMG, CASL Chelsea and Concorde Fire, all very good squads. And, as my son is a defender, if we can keep those teams to zero goals, I am perfectly happy with that.

Coach J, keep in mind that this season, the SC United FC Academy team will play 28 matches. Using the low end of Happy's estimate (40%, although he is talking minutes, while I am using games) that is 11 matches, which is the number of matches the cesa 92 boys played in their entire regular season of premier league.

Coach DeLong, I'd be more than happy to share with you my experiences with the Academy over the past three years; all you have to do is ask. And if I bump into you at Montreux again sometime, I'll even buy the next round.


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jimmy2469
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: IH8KATZ]
      #152229 - 05/26/11 02:57 PM

Quote:

My question is if the aim of the Development Academy is to identify the best players then why doesn't it do just that? I can tell you by looking at the current rosters for the DA that there are a number of players not listed that are clearly better than the ones playing.



Amen, politics and self interest, which will always be present prevent some kids from playing. I appreciate the stated altruistic goals of the DA but do not often see the words actually turn into action.


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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Belligerent]
      #152231 - 05/26/11 02:59 PM

I am always willing to listen to someone that is offering to buy me a round! Just ask Coach Chass about. We will probably be there to watch the champions league final Saturday afternoon.

Is your son going to play in college?
If your son had to make the choice, which would he choose? Which would you want him to choose?

The point about winning 20+ games...It is my job as a coach to develop my entire team, even my bench players so all games matter to me, even blow outs. Are bench players at Wando going to get better in training or beating Goose Creek 9-0? You don't have to answer that. It doesn't help my arguement.
I think alot of the issue is, some people look at this from a parents point of view. "What's best for my kid?" and some of us are looking at it from a coaches point of view. "What's best for the 20 players on my team?"

Belligerent, What would you say the cost per season is? I am really curious about that and haven't seen the answer.

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Backscreen17
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152233 - 05/26/11 03:06 PM

Alister: In the end, virtually identical to club and ODP expenses in any given year. And don't get me started on ODP and its "value."

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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152235 - 05/26/11 03:26 PM


http://www.scunitedda.com/aboutus/index_E.html
because of the family time commitment & cost, i just don't see it being a factor affecting high school soccer.
if its just for developing the best, then it won't take many from each team.. theres definately room for both.
& like one coach said, the real problem with HS soccer is not enough kids are playing club during fall.



Edited by sandman (05/26/11 03:29 PM)


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152238 - 05/26/11 03:42 PM

Alister, every Academy program is priced differently but $3500-$4000 per player is a typical cost. If someone tells you a lot less.....find out if quoted cost includes travel, meals, uniform,etc. Some Academy programs "only" charge a base fee of maybe $1000. But then your plane tickets and training fees are on top of that. It all seems to even out except for the Chelsea clubs. A friend of mine's son plays for CASL and I think they only had to pay $600.

We pay $3700 for my son's team and that covers everything except pocket money for him when he travels and our travel expenses if my wife and I choose to travel out of town.


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SoccerLooney
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: IH8KATZ]
      #152242 - 05/26/11 04:18 PM

Quote:


Quote:

High School soccer greatly interrupts the needed development process for academy players and significantly impacts their ability to maximize their full soccer potential by hindering sustained development.



BS! If you cannot be a "star" at the high school level - if you are clearly an elite player - then you can forget about "player development". I saw Cardinal Newman play this year and didn't see anything wrong with the "development" of Koty or Nestor. Same goes for a lot of others like Burkholder at Wando and Freiburger at Lexington and they are going to D1 soccer programs.




IH8KATZ
I think you are missing the intended point here. Academy players are going to look good when playing high school soccer. There is a big difference between looking good on the field and actually developing your skills to the next level. Dribbling through 5-10 people who don't have the skill to stop you doesn't prepare you to beat a premier level player who matches you in both speed and skill. It is easy for anyone to throw out names of good players and claim that high school soccer has not "ruined" them because, "they can play!". What is really hard is to quantify how much better they would be as players if they continued to play in the academy system throughout the year without interruption. In my opinion it is not enough to say that a player has made it because they are going to a D1 school. I think that the right question should be. "how can we help gifted soccer players to achieve their highest potential?"


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: SoccerLooney]
      #152245 - 05/26/11 04:41 PM

Academy is for players who want to play at the absolute highest level. I agree with the move towards a 10 month season that would exclude HS play. My guess is.....95% of the kids who play Academy now....if they were given the choice of playing HS or having an extended Academy season, would choose Academy.

I'm not saying the choice wouldn't have cost or that some of the kids wouldn't miss HS a lot. I'm sure some would and for those kids at top tier HS programs, most would probably miss it a lot.

But most of these kids hunger to play at the Academy level and HS just can't offer it. Maybe 2-3 HS's can simulate it at practice, but thats about it.

Its like Chris Paul playing in a pretty competitive summer Y league. My guess is he would be grateful for the Y league so long as that was his only outlet to play. But....if he had the chance to play in a summer league that approximated NBA play.......thats where he would be.


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152246 - 05/26/11 04:51 PM

Quote:

Admitidly, I am not sure of the Academy format, but I am assuming they are playing in the Fall and Spring. I don't question that the individual talent level in Academy is probably superior, but geography must limit training schedules to some extent.
How much is a player(already commited to a D1 school) really missing being able to train daily with a Wando or Irmo or NW(or a similar program in the Spring)vs limited training with Academy teams. Not much I think.
I apologise ahead of time if my understanding of the Academy format is in error.




Not sure about this one.....Academy teams typcally train 3-4 times per week. My son plays on a NC team and they go from Nov 1 until end of June. My guess is SCU goes from Aug 1 until Feb 1...and is then intermittent until HS ends and then they run until late June also.

Players are expected to be at all training sessions. This isn't a come once or twice a week situation.....


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Anthony Pelton
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152250 - 05/26/11 07:10 PM

I am not here to rain on the Academy parade. I think programs that promote development of our top players is to be applauded as I feel it can only help.
At the same time it has been stated in this thread that for whatever reason, many of our best 16-18 year olds are not playing Academy.
There are quite a few kids IMHO that just have god given talent that is not necessarily developed even at the club level. If a kid can play, he can play and you will see it early. Will they develop further at the club or Academy level--absolutely.
This is quoted from Wikpedia on Clint Dempsey's youth playing."Dempsey was born in Texas and for much of his childhood his family lived in a trailer park, where he and his siblings grew up playing soccer with the local children.His older brother Ryan was offered a tryout with The Dallas Texans" an elite youth soccer club, but it was young Clint, juggling on the sidelines who was noticed and recruited." Yes, Clint went on to captain and be a great player on that team, but what was his background? You guessed it--virtually none--he was a player---he had touch, skill and vision that perhaps he shouldn't have, but he did.

You will find a similar story(except with alot more poverty) when you research Pele's early youth development. And while I am talking Brazil( I think very few people would argue are the most technical and creative players in the world) up until about 20 years ago, Santos is the only professional club team I can find with an Academy affiliate.

I certainly don't have all the answers but I can tell you this. Kids need to play almost every day in a semi competitive setting to develop the skills young Clint was able to demonstrate(giving God his due also) and here in the US that is tough to find in many places.

But like I said in my opening, I applaud the attempt at what Academy is trying to do.


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152251 - 05/26/11 07:29 PM

I really don't accept your statement that "many of our best 16-18 year olds are not playing Academy."

Outside of the GSP area....that simply isn't true.

I can tell you that with 2 Academies in Charlotte, 1 in Greensboro and 1 in Raleigh...not to mention the two in Atlanta.....the vast majority of top players are in Academy. And my guess is....if you sat down and made a list of the top columbia area players and coastal players, 85-90% of them are playing for SCU.

Of course there is the odd straggler.....but if you knos the kids in those areas (Or Charlotte, Raleigh, etc) .....they are playing Academy.

GSP isn't......because CESA turned down an Academy slot and then wasn't able to get one because of regional saturation.
If CESA had an Academy....trust me, no one would be making a statement like that because the Low country, Midlands, and Upstate would all be covered.

The CLint Dempsey story I'm sure is true. Also largely irrelevant. Again, if a kids goal is to play at a D1 level and hopefully progress on to a professional career at whatever level...if you look at the signings over the last 2 years they are dominated by Academy kids. Not many kids from.....Club x playing at the SC Classic level being recruited into a top tier D1 program or the professional ranks. Those kids.....are coming from Academy or non Academy clubs like CESA.


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Anthony Pelton
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152254 - 05/26/11 07:53 PM

I didn't make the statement--read the thread--IH8KATZ and Backscreen did, I just repeated it.
How can you call the youth development of arguably our best national player irrelevant? Man, are you playing with blinders on!
I didn't tear into the Academy program, I applauded it. Couldn't help but notice you didn't want to address Pele's development or the Brazilian example I brought up.
If you have time, look up David Beckham's youth background and the circumstances he had to overcome.
Go ahead--spend your money. See where you are in a few years---ODP,--Super Y--Academy--?


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SoccerLooney
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152263 - 05/26/11 11:33 PM

Quote:

I didn't make the statement--read the thread--IH8KATZ and Backscreen did, I just repeated it.
How can you call the youth development of arguably our best national player irrelevant? Man, are you playing with blinders on!
I didn't tear into the Academy program, I applauded it. Couldn't help but notice you didn't want to address Pele's development or the Brazilian example I brought up.
If you have time, look up David Beckham's youth background and the circumstances he had to overcome.
Go ahead--spend your money. See where you are in a few years---ODP,--Super Y--Academy--?



What is always interesting in these arguments is that the counter examples presented to support the argument for non-structured development are always the super phenoms from a certain geographical pool. Statistically these examples have to exist. In every model there will be out-liers. People who are so naturally gifted that they can develop inspite of the absence of structured guidance at an early age. But you have to be careful. The fact that Albert Einstein didn't complete highschool doesn't discredit the value of high school education for the masses. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are both college dropouts but most of our kids better get a college degree.

The case of Dempsey is indeed interesting. You didn't go far enough in his story. He was identified as being gifted at a young age and he was recruited by an elite soccer club, the Dallas Texans, where he participated in structured development. He tells the story of his parents having to drive 3 hours to practice. It appears that even when his parents were hard on resources, teammate families contributed funds for him to remain in the Dallas Texans program.

What about Beckham? He was signed by Manchester United to their youth training program at the age of 14. Same program that produced Nicky Butt, Gary Neville, Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes.

Ofcourse Pele is the special one. But even he started training with a professional club at age 15.

Should we even bring up Messi? When did he move to the Barcelona academy? 11 or 13?

I guess what I am trying to say is that even the really gifted super players have at some point in their development become part of a structured environment that helps to channel their god-given talent and to elevate it to a higher level.

Barely can we compare the rank and file of all the major leagues say, EPL, La Liga, MLS to the standout examples we have discussed above. And Since our South Carolina hopefuls are not for the most part this level of player, how much more do they need the help that the academy offers.

In a perfect world, the academy would be free for any that qualify. In fact in other states where MLS academies exist, most of them are free-play. Unfortunately South Carolina doesn't have an MLS base or anyone willing to step up and sponsor a free-play academy. Until that happens those who want to foster young people's soccer dreams will have to keep paying. They will pay for classic, challenge, premier, ODP and academy depending on what level their kid is at.


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Anthony Pelton
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: SoccerLooney]
      #152264 - 05/27/11 06:37 AM

I guess I have not done a good job of making my point, but you have helped me make it on a couple of levels.
First and foremost, I don't want to come accross as attacking the Academy format. I do hope this model works.

As I have reviewed my posts,I realize I don't want to come accross as a "know it all negative" and I feel that I have.

Look at Dempseys story again. He wasn't recruited by the Texans, he was there watching his brothers tryout when he was noticed playing with a ball on the sideline.

Look at the ages of the players in your own post. They are basically 13-15 when they are exposed to elite club or Academy. My entire point is that all of these players developed probably 7-8 years playing what we might call "street ball" DAILY and that for us is IMO tough to overcome.

13 of the first 15 years of my life were spent in Scotland and Germany and the constant pick-up games going on everywhere(I mean literally everywhere) is what we are fighting here and my fear here is that we may never catch up.

But when you look at the rest of the world and look at their 2nd and 3rd choices in the sports world, I think you have part of the answer. Rugby, cricket, a smattering of Formula 1. I will have to say basketball is starting to come on in certain parts of Europe.

We have so many good and popular sports here in the US, that I realize soccer will never be number one or even two and many of you are right--funding is inadequate.

In short, we do have to do something. I do hope Academy will help develop future US stars and was wrong to attack this attempt.


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152265 - 05/27/11 06:45 AM

Quote:

I didn't make the statement--read the thread--IH8KATZ and Backscreen did, I just repeated it.
How can you call the youth development of arguably our best national player irrelevant? Man, are you playing with blinders on!
I didn't tear into the Academy program, I applauded it. Couldn't help but notice you didn't want to address Pele's development or the Brazilian example I brought up.
If you have time, look up David Beckham's youth background and the circumstances he had to overcome.
Go ahead--spend your money. See where you are in a few years---ODP,--Super Y--Academy--?




1. Ok, should have said I didn't accept THE statement, not your statement.

2. Regarding Pele and Clint Dempsey....not writing THEM off as irrelevant, rather the rags to riches, roll up an old ball of tape and use it as a ball, when I was younger I used to walk 10 miles to school uphill, both ways.....stories as irrlevant to kids today.

As was noted.....Clint Dempsey joined the Texans, arguably the top club (Academy also...) in the country at a pretty young age. Pele and the soccer culture of Brasil cannot be compared to the US at any level. It simply doesnt translate to American soccer.

No doubt.....IMO the single charateristic that seperated the kids at the thinnest layer at the top, is the work they do on their own. Rolled up ball of tape or a $60 ball. Ultimately, every kid that "makes" it does buttloads of work on their own.

But when you introduce formal structure into the mix....be it HS or CLub or Academy or local YMCA.........and talk about development and competition there really isn't any comparison. That was my point And my second point was....for the top level player, if you are going to introduce structure to the player....the more you do of the best and the more you can limit the mediocre...the better the player will do developmentally.

For every Dom Wren or Phil Savitz or Shilo Tisdale in South Carolina HS coaching....there are 5 guys like I used to be. Coaches who mean well, but can't really offer the kids at the highest level the instruction and motivation they need to keep getting better technically and tactically. Its just how it is.


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goldeneagle86
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152269 - 05/27/11 07:42 AM

The simple fact of the matter is that Dempsey, Murray, Mathis,Donovan etc are anomalies in the sport. Most of the best athletes in the US choose the so called "glamour" sports. Could you imagine if Cam Newton had been trained as a soccer player, or Dwayne Wade or Derrick Rose.
Another problem is organized soccer the way it is set up here - like the academy system- we are so caught up with putting the same ages together which causes little or no true development. I visited Liverpool with my son when he was 13. They told him that he was a good as any 13 year old they had seen but said if he stayed in the US he would stagnate. They told us that all of the EPL talent that is identified at an early age NEVER plays with their age, they play against men who are 4,5,6 years older than them. That is why 18 year olds from Europe and South America can compete at such a high level at an age when our best are playing in High School. The Liverpool Academy team made up of 16 and 17 year olds visited here and destroyed a team made up of college stars from Furman,Clemson and USC.
To get a real feel for how poor our development of players is here look at the womens game. We once dominated the game but other countries are quickly catching us. The reason, women in other countries didnt play organized soccer, now that they are and are adopting the training and development of their mens teams they are catching up and passing us. Is any American woman as good as Marta?
Until we can convince a larger number of talented athletes to play soccer and adjust our methods to allow our players to play up not just one age group but several we will always lag behind the rest of the world


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T Robinson
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: goldeneagle86]
      #152270 - 05/27/11 07:55 AM

Personally I have a neutral attitude about the academy program. It’s the latest attempt to get the US up to speed in soccer, much like attempts to do the same with education. I’d like to see it work and the US have better players. I worry, however, that by U-14 the damage is already done, and by U-16 certainly so; that is, lack of technical skills and using them at the right times. That’s where the US lags, in my opinion. I’d argue American players know the game just as well as anyone else, thanks in part to “FIFA” video games and a high ratio of matches kids play with their clubs. I can’t help but wonder if we need to focus the developmental part on younger kids. This sentiment was echoed by Tony Dicicco recently: http://www.examiner.com/soccer-in-nation...cer-development
There is an interesting editorial by Jay Martin in the latest issue of The Soccer Journal, the publication of the NSCAA, in which he outlines the “good, bad and ugly” of the academy program. I tried to find a link to it but couldn’t. Maybe someone else can.
High school soccer isn’t going away, and most high school coaches who supposedly aren’t developing players are the same ones who suddenly know what they are doing while they train clubs. It’s too bad the approach of USSF has been ambivalent about working with schools in the first place. Most kids go to elementary schools, middle schools, and high schools. Kids could be identified earlier and tracked by PE departments working with clubs maybe. I don’t know – I’m just free associating here so know that before one of the know-it-alls jumps all over me. Just trying to figure a way to expose ALL kids to soccer earlier, cheaper, and with something more driven by development than profit motive. Wouldn’t a high school coach be interested in identifying all the potential players in their district and having a hand in their development? I know I would. Just as most want their kids playing as often and at the highest levels as possible.
Good point on the economic cost of academy too. There’s an interesting chapter regarding poverty and soccer in England in Soccernomics (http://www.amazon.com/Soccernomics-Australia-Turkey---Iraq--Are-Destined/dp/1568584253/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1306460056&sr=1-1) that analyzed the occupations of England’s national team players and how there appears to be a correlation between poor parents and winning versus middle class and losing.
Again, not being critical, although I will throw it out there that I’m not sure I could afford for my daughter to play academy, and I know my parents wouldn’t have been able to back in the day – though I would have loved the chance to play it. Most of the kids I know who are or have played Academy are from fairly well-to-to families.


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Coach J
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: T Robinson]
      #152272 - 05/27/11 08:17 AM

Interesting point about the money side, I am sure there are some kids playing that are on scholarship, but how many of those are just average players, or below average with a lot of athleticism? What is the criteria for scholarship? How is the academy finding these players and inviting them into the program? I guess what I am saying and TR alluded to it is this, there are a lot of kids out there who could play academy but they know they don't have the money, how do you find those kids and parents? Are coaches making a watch list of kids at u-11 though u14? Is that group even targeted?

I am just asking questions that is all, not attacking so please just let those who can answer them do so Thanks


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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach J]
      #152275 - 05/27/11 08:30 AM

It's the chicken or the egg debate..
Did the Academy make the players or the players make the academy?
Do coaches have to get a special certification to coach in this academy?
Are these coaches in these academy "full time" coaches or are they like most of us that work day jobs and coach in the evening hoping to break even and do it for the love of the game?

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Alister DeLong
Stratford High School
Boys Soccer


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152294 - 05/27/11 10:10 AM

Alister, as I said my son plays on a NC Academy team. Coaches of u16 teams in NC:

CASL Chelsea - Head coach of UNC
NC Fusion(Greensboro) - Asst head coach of Elon
CSA - Head coach of UNC Charlotte
North Meck - Asst head coach of Davidson

I would agree that money is an issue Would be sweet if it were free. Not sure if that would really draw in the masses, as by definition...this isn't for the masses. If a kid is a great player.....he'll have a spot on an Academy team, regardles of his parents finances. I see it on my sons team.


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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152296 - 05/27/11 10:17 AM

I am surprised at the fact that college coaches have the time to coach these club teams. I played at a small Division II school and it seemed like the 5 wins we averaged per year was a fully time job and commitment.

That is great that they can bring in those calibar coaches. I bet is it is a great recruiting tool for them.

Thank you Big Daddy for all of the information. As I mentioned a few times, I have been out of the club game for several years.

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Alister DeLong
Stratford High School
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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152297 - 05/27/11 10:18 AM

Sorry to everyone for being over passionate/ over bearing on the matter.

But this thread isn't meant to be about American soccer culture, which is what it is. Nor is it meant to be about why so many great young American athletes appear to prefer basketball or football to soccer. Nor is it meant to be about financial limitations that some may confront when trying to progress in this sport.

The thread is about.....given our culture at large, USSF is focussing on Academy as the primary means of identifying and developing top young players. And within that system after 4 years there appears to be momentum towards making Academy essentially a year round sport, meaning HS soccer will be a conflict for the Academy player.

Is that move good or bad for the player? And what is the impact on HS soccer.

I'll argue that its good for the player.....and by and large will have little impact on HS soccer in general, other than at the Meccas of hs soccer like Wando and Irmo, where they may lose a handful of starters and leaders.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152298 - 05/27/11 10:23 AM

Quote:

Alister, as I said my son plays on a NC Academy team. Coaches of u16 teams in NC:

CASL Chelsea - Head coach of UNC
NC Fusion(Greensboro) - Asst head coach of Elon
CSA - Head coach of UNC Charlotte
North Meck - Asst head coach of Davidson

I would agree that money is an issue Would be sweet if it were free. Not sure if that would really draw in the masses, as by definition...this isn't for the masses. If a kid is a great player.....he'll have a spot on an Academy team, regardles of his parents finances. I see it on my sons team.




Year round Academy would threaten this coaching setup, IMO. NC Academy currently doesn't get going until early November....so the coaches have anywhere from a few days to a month of conflict to manage. The winter and spring seasons in college aren't quite as demanding as the Fall. But if Academy season ran from Sept thru June....I would agree it would be really hard for these guys to keep doing what they do during their fall college season.

Probably settle more into a role like Coach Molinary at USC, who is involved with SC United....but doesn't coach a team.


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Hatem Ben Arfa
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152300 - 05/27/11 10:32 AM

How many soccer players opt not to play high school soccer in favor of club? There was a kid at Dorman who did it and went to USC but he didn't even letter. Is it really that beneficial not to play for your high school? I hardly think you would get worse. How popular are these players amongst their schoolmates knowing that they have hung them out to dry with an eliltist attitude?

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T Robinson
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152303 - 05/27/11 10:49 AM

I don't think there should be a general belief that Academy level players don't benefit from HS soccer or HS coaches.

I've had two Academy players at JICHS over the last four years. In both cases I have to say I believe they benefited from their HS experience. Wando may have beaten us handily the second time we played this season, but I believe it was a great experience for my guys to be up against a team of that caliber, and to have to dig in to be a leader on and off the field. In fact, in many of our matches we were up against quality opponents who have quality coaching. I also have to say that the vast majority of the coaches I've encountered at the high school level are very good at teaching (developing) their players. They aren't coaching ACC teams, but I'd wager some of our most experienced and best high school coaches - like Savitz, Reilly, Riddlehover, Pelton, etc., and some of the "younger" coaches too (Heise, Eudy, Hiller, Tisdale) would NOT exactly crash and burn at the college level. I think it would be fun to see college coaches take on some of the teams we get at the high school level and see if they can develop them like the guys above do.

I'm also concerned that Academy soccer might veer too close to professionalism or like some higher level college program. What happens when a player gets hurt, loses his touch, burns out? Are they cast aside and forgotten in favor of someone else. Sure, it's survival of the fittest, but at the same time these are just kids afterall. What if they are late bloomers - do they ever get a chance? How cut-thoat do we want it to be?


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Hatem Ben Arfa]
      #152304 - 05/27/11 10:52 AM


Probably not an issue. Kids are more mature than parents on stuff like this.

My dad grew up on a farm in western PA back in the depression. He said they were poor but they didn't know they were poor, becasue everyone around was in the same boat. Kids are kids...until adults start pointing out differences.


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: T Robinson]
      #152307 - 05/27/11 11:06 AM

Quote:

I don't think there should be a general belief that Academy level players don't benefit from HS soccer or HS coaches.

I've had two Academy players at JICHS over the last four years. In both cases I have to say I believe they benefited from their HS experience. Wando may have beaten us handily the second time we played this season, but I believe it was a great experience for my guys to be up against a team of that caliber, and to have to dig in to be a leader on and off the field. In fact, in many of our matches we were up against quality opponents who have quality coaching. I also have to say that the vast majority of the coaches I've encountered at the high school level are very good at teaching (developing) their players. They aren't coaching ACC teams, but I'd wager some of our most experienced and best high school coaches - like Savitz, Reilly, Riddlehover, Pelton, etc., and some of the "younger" coaches too (Heise, Eudy, Hiller, Tisdale) would NOT exactly crash and burn at the college level. I think it would be fun to see college coaches take on some of the teams we get at the high school level and see if they can develop them like the guys above do.

I'm also concerned that Academy soccer might veer too close to professionalism or like some higher level college program. What happens when a player gets hurt, loses his touch, burns out? Are they cast aside and forgotten in favor of someone else. Sure, it's survival of the fittest, but at the same time these are just kids afterall. What if they are late bloomers - do they ever get a chance? How cut-thoat do we want it to be?




Of course there are benefits to Academy kids playing HS. You used several valid areas as examples. But there are also downsides to it...speed of play being one, consistently playing under pressure being another one.

Just saying that while there are benefits to HS....there would be more benefits by spending those 3 1/2 months in the Academy environment. Thats my opinion.

In terms of where Academy is headed.....IMO, it is more of a fish or cut bait environment. I won't debate the pros/cons of that. This is meant to be a winnowing process. Which kids have the God given ability and the desire and the work rate and personality....to thrive in that environment?


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jimmy2469
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152309 - 05/27/11 11:25 AM

[quote} Of course there are benefits to Academy kids playing HS. You used several valid areas as examples. But there are also downsides to it...speed of play being one, consistently playing under pressure being another one.

Just saying that while there are benefits to HS....there would be more benefits by spending those 3 1/2 months in the Academy environment. Thats my opinion.

In terms of where Academy is headed.....IMO, it is more of a fish or cut bait environment. I won't debate the pros/cons of that. This is meant to be a winnowing process. Which kids have the God given ability and the desire and the work rate and personality....to thrive in that environment?


Here is my problem, I completely agree that more work makes players better. And I agree the Academy system provides that. But, my concern is, first you are limiting the player pool by default. We are trying to develop our youth soccer programs to compete, we need to keep as many kids playing for as long as we can and if that means High School, then do not take that away. My second concern has been stated in this thread previously, you can look around and find kids that should be on the academy teams and are not. Why, politics, school affiliations, bubba has been on the team for 4 years so we are not going to replace him even though Sam is better, whatever reason. I know there is not an answer to that but elimintating a fallback option for those kids does not make sense.

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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: jimmy2469]
      #152310 - 05/27/11 11:31 AM

How are kids identified for the IMG academy in Flordia?

I don't know much about it but isn't that kind of like the European system with getting kids in to train together.

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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: jimmy2469]
      #152312 - 05/27/11 11:33 AM

Jimmy, what is being eliminated? How is choice being taken away? How is the soccer pool being shrunk? No one is talking about eliminating HS soccer.

The only kid who has conflict....is the kid who is an Academy player and also really loves HS. That kid....will have to choose. And if it were my kid and he really loved HS that much....I'd tell him to follow his heart and if he was good enough the right college team would still find him.

Way back on this thread someone said this only effected 35-40 kids in SC. Those 35-40 kids have plenty of options to keep playing the game they love if they find Academy overly confining.


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T Robinson
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152313 - 05/27/11 11:38 AM

Agreed. College and professional coaches find talent. They don't care if a kid played Academy or not, or club or not, or club over high school. They only care if a player is good, full stop.

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HappyDaddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152314 - 05/27/11 11:42 AM

A few observations related to some of the comments:

I believe that a survey of college coaches would show them to be near unanimous in their preference that recruits play Academy all year, from a developmental perspective.

The Federation clearly believes that a year round Academy program is ideal, but isn't willing to mandate it - yet.

All training isn't equal. The Federation closely monitors DA training to ensure that it meets a very high standard. The Federation has its own ideas of what training should be (I suppose one could disagree with their model), and insists that it be adhered to.

I agree that in a perfect world all kids of ability would be identified early and afforded the chance to play and train at a high level for free. Figuring out how to do that is above my pay grade.

The Federation considers the DA to be an extension of the National Team(s). It wants the best players getting the best training and playing the most uniformly competitive games it can provide. Yes, in that sense it is "elitist."


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HappyDaddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152315 - 05/27/11 11:50 AM

Coach:

IMG is pay to play (like Darlington Soccer Academy, Shattuck St. Marys, etc.) and shouldn't be confused with the USSF Residency program, also in Bradenton. The Residency kids are selected by the Federation youth national team coaches (primary focus is on U-17 team).


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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: HappyDaddy]
      #152317 - 05/27/11 11:57 AM

Thanks. I thought they were one in the same.

Maybe they should take the kids out of high school and each state have a Residency Program and have them play one another. That way they wouldn't be students at a high school and wouldn't have the option. They could divide the country into regions and play one another.

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Coach J
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152318 - 05/27/11 12:28 PM

Quote:



Maybe they should take the kids out of high school and each state have a Residency Program and have them play one another. That way they wouldn't be students at a high school and wouldn't have the option. They could divide the country into regions and play one another. [/quote



I would think that the pro clubs would have to get involved for this to happen. It would not be cheap! But more playing a being evaluated is what the DA is trying to do. ODP was not the answer, what is ? I think we are still working on that as a country. I have also noticed some new leagues forming for those who can not make DA, any idea on how will this will work with mostly tournament play for these kids. They are only playing one game a day, and using many of the same rules by the DA. Is this going to be the D2 of the DA? ( play on words. )

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soccer10
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach J]
      #152323 - 05/27/11 01:07 PM

Can someone post the Academy players and what schools they play for? I think it would be interesting to see the results.

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HappyDaddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: soccer10]
      #152324 - 05/27/11 01:19 PM

Next year's rosters are at link on left. This year's are found by clicking men's program link at left: http://scunitedda.com

Someone else will have to match with schools because I couldn't do it.


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SoccerLooney
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152348 - 05/27/11 08:51 PM

Quote:

I guess I have not done a good job of making my point, but you have helped me make it on a couple of levels.
First and foremost, I don't want to come accross as attacking the Academy format. I do hope this model works.

As I have reviewed my posts,I realize I don't want to come accross as a "know it all negative" and I feel that I have.

Look at Dempseys story again. He wasn't recruited by the Texans, he was there watching his brothers tryout when he was noticed playing with a ball on the sideline.

Look at the ages of the players in your own post. They are basically 13-15 when they are exposed to elite club or Academy. My entire point is that all of these players developed probably 7-8 years playing what we might call "street ball" DAILY and that for us is IMO tough to overcome.

13 of the first 15 years of my life were spent in Scotland and Germany and the constant pick-up games going on everywhere(I mean literally everywhere) is what we are fighting here and my fear here is that we may never catch up.

But when you look at the rest of the world and look at their 2nd and 3rd choices in the sports world, I think you have part of the answer. Rugby, cricket, a smattering of Formula 1. I will have to say basketball is starting to come on in certain parts of Europe.

We have so many good and popular sports here in the US, that I realize soccer will never be number one or even two and many of you are right--funding is inadequate.

In short, we do have to do something. I do hope Academy will help develop future US stars and was wrong to attack this attempt.




You give me too much credit as I don't think I have made your point at all. That is if we focus our discussion on whether Academy training is crucial for the development of skilled high school aged players.

All the star players we discussed above benefited from a highly structured training program comparable to the USSDA academy during their high school age. What we are saying is provide the same for our South Carolina Academy players without the interruption of non-standardized training that is representative of the high school soccer season.

I think we are all in agreement that we need to start the identification process much earlier than at academy or pre-academy age. However on the subject of adhoc play (unstructured training) as a prerequisite for development, I don't neccessarily agree with you because the evidence is not conclusive.

Unstructured training may have played a role in the development of some stars but that doesn't mean that structured development (had it been available at that age) would not have achieved the same results.

A good example of this is Ajax dutch academy system where young lads are identified as early as 7 to 8 years old and are brought in to engage in structured development.


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goldeneagle86
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: HappyDaddy]
      #152349 - 05/27/11 08:54 PM

I checked the roster and the players listed are nowhere near the most talented players in the state. Some of them played club and didnt even start so their parents, who thought they were bettter than they were, had them try out at Columbia United and they made it. Trust me the Premier teams at the club level ie CESA, Mount Pleasant have much better talent. Just look at the D-1 signees and you can tell. The most talented junior in the state, Cole Seiler, plays club, so does the best Sophmore, Austin Burnikel, as well as the best freshman,Conner Donahue.

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SoccerLooney
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: goldeneagle86]
      #152350 - 05/27/11 09:59 PM

goldeneagle86
Do you feel better now that you have put the USSDA Academy in its place? Aren't these players all from the Greenville area? Aren't they all CESA players. What do you suggest the academy to do to have these players move to the academy? Bribe them, go crawling to CESA and beg for them? Patrick Khouri, the number one freshman according to TopDrawerSoccer (before they pulled their 2014 rankings) is not playing academy either.

Did any of these players show up for the academy tryouts and the academy staff just refused to take them as talented as they are according to your ratings?

As far as player ratings go, there is a lot of subjectivity especially at this age.


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goldeneagle86
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: SoccerLooney]
      #152353 - 05/27/11 10:16 PM

No it doesnt make me feel better i think that the various clubs should work together instead of being in it just for the $. No these players are satisfied where they are and by the way Khouri is playing for CESA also, he bypassed Columbia and went to Greenville, the kid he will be replacing went to Columbia rather than staying where he was.

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SoccerLooney
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: goldeneagle86]
      #152354 - 05/27/11 11:02 PM

Totally agree with the need to work together. As far as I am concerned, CESA is a premier club which provides great development opportunities for its players. If a player chooses to stay at CESA and not go to the academy because they feel their needs are met I have no problem whatsover with that. Especially so for players who already have avenues to the national team. In fact I think it is a win-win situation, as it is almost the same as having two academies in the state ==> Hey, more development opportunities for the lads. What I wish for these CESA premier players is the same as what I have already stated for academy players: 10 months of high level training without the interruption of high school soccer.

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HappyDaddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: goldeneagle86]
      #152358 - 05/28/11 06:30 AM

When the Academy program began in SC, the teams were composed entirely of kids from the Lowcountry. Two years ago, after the association with SCUtd, the pool expanded greatly to include kids from the Midlands and beyond. For the 2011-12 season there are a few kids coming from the Upstate. No one has suggested that every single player in the state who is good enough to play in the DA is doing so, or always will do so. There will always be reasons that individual players will choose a different course (e.g. finances, personality conflicts, ability to get to training, etc.).

Many clubs around the state are more than willing to encourage their best players to try out for the DA and take pride in their having developed them to point where they are good enough to train and compete at that level. Some clubs (not many) choose, for their own reasons, to hang on to their players like grim death, regardless of whether it is in the best interest of the player. I can only say that with each passing year that becomes more difficult, as the landscape of elite soccer changes.

Having now recovered from nearly choking on the irony of your comment about money, let me put your mind at ease. SCUtd Development Academy runs on a break even basis. We operate on a shoestring and our coaches often waive part of their fees in order to meet budget (translation: to keep the cost to players as affordable as possible). You are free to make any criticisms you want. However, implying that our folks are somehow in this for the money is beyond the pale.


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Anthony Pelton
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: HappyDaddy]
      #152368 - 05/28/11 05:42 PM

SoccerLoony wants D.A. players to be exposed to 10 months of training not interupted by H.S.( whose training he calls largly unstructured) Is this gentleman considered qualified to visit a typical practice and label H.S training in this fashion--just wrong.
When the Elite status arose several years back, Bridge and CESA seemed to emerge as frontrunners . Now Bridge has waned and DA is activly recruiting CESA's elite and so the feeding frenzy ensues. And by several posters own admission, some of the states best players are staying away.
I'll tell you what none of the above has--longevity, a proven track record and it will be interesting to see where this all is in a few years.
The DA leadership is interseting but admittadly employs some quality coaches who curiously list their HS Coaching experience and accomplishments in their profiles before any club affiliations.Are these the same HS coaches you say will tell their DA players they can't play their senior year in HS? Yeah, good luck with that.
Back to the leadership--does anyone wonder why things didn't work out at SSC or Bridge? Yup--someone should have researched that.
I am like everyone else--I want to see a competitive national side do well and in the past decade, I think we have gotten better but there are times I want to question the Academy model alot of the world seems to have adopted.
You have to have team oriented tactics to win--I get that, but a system that does not encourage any "taking a man on" until the final third has IMO hurt creative individuality.
Messi(who is truly a great creative player) might be the world's last without baggage(Rooney--too inconsistant, Ronaldo--too soft)I am not positive why, but today's adopted systems have to be part of it and as Coach Robinson said, when players are identified, the clubs only care about quality--not technical background.
Pele, Best, Cruyff, Eusabio and a few others all played at the same time and gave the game more flair. Messi IMO today stands alone.
And SoccerLoony(since you insist on pointing out my non error) read the Dempsey profile again--he was not recruited by the Texans but rather was at his older brother(Ryan's) tryout when he was noticed juggling on the sideline.
All of this said--I am for anything that helps develop our best state players into hopefully national ones, just not ready to jump onto this bandwagon yet until a reputation is established and attempting to force quality players to not play for quality HS teams their senior years is not getting off to a very good start


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SoccerLooney
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152372 - 05/29/11 12:09 AM

Pelton,
You are right, I am a nobody. A nobody with an opinion. Where you went wrong is when you claim that I referred to HS training as "largely unstructured". What I regard as unstructured or adhoc training is what you call STREET ball or pickup games. I regard HS training as unstandardized in comparison to academy training.


With regards to Clint Dempsey, I am at a complete loss as to what you are still trying to squeeze out of this scenario to collaborate your point. You seem to be stuck on the word "recruited". Please refer to your post dated "05/26/11 07:10 PM". You quoted the wikipedia article as saying that <b>"but it was young Clint, juggling on the sidelines who was noticed and recruited." </b> You were correct because that is exactly what the wikipedia article says. Now in your most recent post you are reversing yourself and misquoting the article at the same time when you say <b>"he was not recruited by the Texans" </b>

This could all be a semantic mix up, I think what you were trying to convey is that Clint was not SCOUTED by the Texans as his brother was. You are correct in this assertion. In the same post you indicated that magically clint had touch, skill and vision even before he played for the Texans. You went ahead to attribute Clint's development at an early age to STREET ball or pickup games. My argument here was that the success of Dempsey and any others who may have developed some skills before becoming part of structured development environment does not lead us to the conclusion that structured development at an early age would not have yielded for them the same results or even better results. You have to be careful with these examples because they are not measurable. For example do you think we would have a better midfielder in Dempsey if he had found his way at an early age to say the Barcelona academy or indeed if he had stayed with the Arsenal Academy? Or do you think the Dempsey we have is the best Dempsey we could have ever got?

Quote:

Anthony Pelton
-- I get that, but a system that does not encourage any "taking a man on" until the final third has IMO hurt creative individuality.





I have some thoughts on this if you care to listen. The game of soccer evolves over time. Any evolution process will strive to make the evolving system as efficient as possible. In soccer the offensive primary objective is to get the ball in the other goal as quickly as possible and as often as possible. One way of doing this is to move the ball in one kick to as close to the goal as possible and have a target forward try to bring the ball down and score. We all know how easy it is to defend this approach. Another approach is to have dedicated ball carriers (midfielders), they will bob and weave through the midfield dribbling and passing until they get the ball to the forwards who will try to score. Defenses have fun playing these kinds of teams because they can hack at you in the middle of the field with no fear of costly penalties. Yet another way is to have a mid-field that is committed to passing the ball until it can be passed to a forward who then might engage a defender and score. Ofcourse there are hybrid variations of these approaches. Of all three it appears that the game is evolving to recognize the third option as the most optimal way of playing soccer. The Modern Game is the term I hear. Just about every team at the highest level of soccer plays a game that is heavily weighted on passing in the mid-field. Now Barcelona, what a shining example of the modern game! So why doesn't every team just pick it up and do it, it is just passing the ball right? Why doesn't Arsenal win as much as Barcelona? It ends up being that the art of passing effectively and efficiently is very difficult to master both for individuals and for a team. There is as much creativity needed in the passing game as is often displayed by the best dribblers out there. It ends up that when yo have three open people that you can pass the ball to, you need to figure out which of those three is the right one (if any)and that your option might be the guy who will get open when you fake instead of passing. This apparently requires years of training to master and the US National Team is lagging years behind. You mention Messi being a creative guy. Please remember that he does most of his creative runs in the final third. Yes he will hit a dribbling lane from 40 yards out and run in that lane but he rarely takes on players 1v1 until he is near the goal. The person you forgot to mention when you started talking about creativity is Xavier Hernandez. El Maestro XAVI! And he does it all with one or two touches. Not to sound obnoxious, but isn't it interesting that Argentine National Team Messi doesn't compare to Barcelona Messi.

By the way. What a lot of teams struggle with and is really tough to teach even when they commit to the passing game, is knowing the trigger points for the transition from passing the ball around and moving into attack mode. That is the difference between Arsenal and Barcelona. Well ofcourse Messi,Xavi,Iniesta have a lot to do with this difference These three live and breathe in the transition area, they know the triggers and everyone else fits in around them. A good example of someone who has a real problem with this on the Barcelona team is Alves. He is routinely out of sync with the pulse of the frontrunners. This in my opinion is also why Arshavin has struggled to make an impact at Arsenal, the ability to play 1-2 touch and transition into attack. He said it himself in an interview that when he moved to the EPL the one hard adjustment he had to make was to learn how to play 1-2 touch because whenever he didn't he would always lose the ball. The elite midfielders and defenders will beat you down my friend and take that ball from you They did this to Robinho and drove him out of the EPL.

You know what player I am really excited about though, Neymar the young Santos player who is likely to move to the EPL. He is a very exciting player in that he creates off the dribble anywhere in the mid-field. It will be interesting to see what adjustments he will have to make in order to succeed in the EPL if he makes the move.

I think the academy is a great vehicle for helping aspiring soccer players to continue down the road of developing their skills to the fullest potential. Some may end up on the national team , some may end up playing professionally, some may play in college and some may quit soccer after academy. All in all Ithink they will be grateful that someone gave them an opportunity to fulfill a dream.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: SoccerLooney]
      #152373 - 05/29/11 08:05 AM

You aren't that looney. Great post!!!!!

This really isn't about Academy....but you brought Barca into the mix and so I'll comment. Wow, they play a game I couldn't even dream of understanding. How many times yesterday did you see them play the ball into the corner and then serve it into the box? Uh, maybe once or twice. How many times did you see someone other than Messi take repeated touches with the ball in the final third? Not too many.....

What I saw was a triangle everywhere on the field. DIdn't matter where, it quickly organized. Everything was 1 or 2 touch passing, movement off the ball was unbelievable. Creativity and vision, unselfishness. Players moved and filled gaps..almost like it as a pickup game without positional responsibilities. The non handball call in the box would have been on David Villa,how as he defending im a transitional attack? I regularly saw Messi dropping in behind Xavi and Iniesta.

Coaches always talk about playing as one. Barca has perfected that. 11 players disolve into 1 living breathing unit that understands implicitly what every part of the body is doing.

Just a joy to watch.


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152374 - 05/29/11 08:12 AM

The move towards year round high level soccer isn't new and didn't start with the USSF Academy. Not that it started with CESA either....but their Premier teams are very active in the Spring, playing a handful of Showcases plus the program they have in playing D2 college teams.

Academy or not, the push for the highest level players is to train and play more at that level.

Its not anti-high school.....nor is it forcing anyone to choose. Its jsut going to be a part of the program and kids will have to evaluate upfront if thats what they want. Either option is fine. Play at the highest level or play at a little lower level and play with your friends in hs. Mixing the two isn't likely to be an option in the very near future.


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Anthony Pelton
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152381 - 05/29/11 03:13 PM

Looney,
Unstructured---non standardized---don't seem very far apart to me.
I will leave the Dempsey thing alone--perhaps it is semantics.
Some of your modern game references are interesting and not without merit.Man U clearly looked lost yesterday and a Berbatov at the midfield may have helped here(not sure why he didn't even make the bench).
We can hem and haw this thing all day long, but usually as games evolve, stars in various positions emerge, which every game IMO needs.
The game has stagnated some in the past 20 yrs( again IMO) and I will let my references in my previous post speak for themselves.
I have received this past week 5 emails that reference 6 different players and I quote here"will be told in no uncertain terms that playing HS next Spring will not be an option" so it will be interesting to see what happens.
I don't feel it is my place(and I have been asked for discretion) to list the names of these young men but I can tell you only 3 will be seniors. I cannot believe "Happy" and others who seem to be in the know have not received the same info I have. Conflict may be coming sooner than you think.
I don't mean this in an agressive manner but I include my real name and address every time I post, so if you are ever in this neck of the woods I think I would enjoy discussing our difference of opinions.


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nothersoccerdad
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152382 - 05/29/11 03:58 PM

high school soccer is where academy/premier players go to relax...it's a different game, it's about winning, there's no time to develop much of anything...just my opinion.

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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152386 - 05/29/11 06:11 PM

Quote:

"will be told in no uncertain terms that playing HS next Spring will not be an option"






Of course, that's just a single phrase, taken out of the context of the rest of the conversation. Perhaps if there was a "IF the player wants to participate in this, that, or the other opportunity, which requires a certain amount of time and participation, THEN..." preceding it, the quoted text wouldn't sound quite so...well, like it sounds.

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Edited by Coach Chass (05/29/11 07:23 PM)


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HappyDaddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach Chass]
      #152388 - 05/29/11 07:15 PM

I certainly don't know anything about Coach Pelton's emails, but whatever the reason for them, it isn't because players for SCUtd FC Development Academy have been told they can't play HS next year.

Anyone with specific questions about the Academy program is encouraged to contact SCUtd FC DA coaches.


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Anthony Pelton
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: HappyDaddy]
      #152391 - 05/29/11 07:55 PM

Emails didn't state "have been told"--all stated "will be told".

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goldeneagle86
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152399 - 05/30/11 11:54 AM

You are correct about the CESA teams staying active during the HS season. Usually it is because they are getting ready for regionals. I can tell you that their coaches would not tell kids that they could not play HS soccer, the coaches I know encourage the kids to even play other sports so that they keep their fitness levels high.
I can also tell you that the HS programs where many of the top players in the state play--Mann, eastside, riverside, wando, irmo, BE, Christ etc.. have training that is just as good if not sometimes better than a lot of the academy and club coaches offer. The one invaluable thing they provide is playing for school pride and allowing the kids an opportunity to excel in front of their friends not just their parents.


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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: goldeneagle86]
      #152400 - 05/30/11 12:07 PM

Interesting that I just received this article this morning from SoccerAmerica's Youth Soccer Insider. Note Tony Lepore's use of the word "yet."


Monday, May 30, 2011
The high-school dilemma

By Mike Woitalla

HIGH SCHOOL VS. CLUB. One of the most unfortunate aspects of American youth soccer is forcing kids to choose between club soccer and high school ball. For sure, in many cases it’s not an either-or, but the pressure on the very elite players, especially those in the U.S. Soccer Development Academy, to skip school ball continues to increase.

The Washington Post’s Paul Tenorio did an excellent job reporting on the dilemma in a recent article headlined, “Is it best to play in high school, or on an academy team?”

Tony Lepore, director of scouting for U.S. youth national teams and a technical adviser for the Development Academy, says, “In top footballing nations, school soccer is not where the top players play and develop. That’s how this has evolved and how this shift has continued. ... We’ve given the choice to the clubs. It’s not a mandate yet, but we totally get why they’re choosing that and that’s why we’re supporting it.”

Taylor Twellman, one of the most prolific goalscorers in MLS history, played multiple high school sports and says: “There’s no denying if you play U.S. Development Academy, the coaching, fields, players surrounding you is going to be better, but is that ultimately the goal of life? I don’t know if that trade-off is worth it, but I understand U.S. Soccer’s best opportunity is to get the area’s best players together to train together. I understand that argument, but what is the sacrifice?”

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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach Chass]
      #152402 - 05/30/11 12:33 PM

How many parents of academically gifted students would tell their child not to take AP classes, but instead take CP classes so they could be in class with their friends?

Let me re-phrase.....why not argue for the elimination of Honors and AP level classes and simply offer CP or TP classes?

Is the committment towards a full or near full slate of AP classes any less demanding or challenging then a soccer kid playing Academy?

As a society are we sort of encouraging a dumbing down of our kids when we take away choices and avenues to excel?

Kids (and adults) make choices all the time. Those choices define us in many ways. Choices also bind us by the opportunity cost of a path not taken. 15 and 16 year olds need to start learning that lesson.

And not meaning to be ugly....but Taylor Twellman isn't exactly on my sons radar (or mine) in terms of soccer and life choices. I would far prefer he read Rick Warren to understand the "goals of life".


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letmeputittooyouthisway
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152403 - 05/30/11 12:54 PM

same can be true for college soccer. there's a lot of boom ball at the college level, too. will they outlaw college soccer next?

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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152404 - 05/30/11 01:23 PM

Coincidentally, my day job is teaching AP classes, and at this time of year as my students are making their final decisions about next year's classes, I am constantly encouraging them to challenge themselves by continuing to take the AP classes still available to them.

On the other hand--and this has become somewhat of an issue--there has been a push to eliminate choices for these students...scheduling changes that make it next-to-impossible for students to take one or more AP classes without taking ALL AP classes. And I'm against taking away that choice, because for one thing, it may turn students away from starting an AP journey if they know they are locked into it with reduced choices. If a child takes AP Language, does that mean they MUST also take AP Calculus? Why must it be both or neither? Why not attempt to allow them to take advantage of every challenging opportunity available in one semester without making it contingent on other semesters and courses?

Example: A student wants to take Marine Science in the spring. It's not offered at the AP level, but the student is really interested in that curriculum. However, it conflicts with AP Calculus, but not with Honors Calculus. Do we tell the student he can't take AP Literature in the fall unless he also commits to AP Calculus in the spring--foregoing Marine Science?

What I am against is exactly what you claim to be--taking away choices and avenues to excel. Choices don't have to be either-or, all-or-nothing, especially when there are lifelong benefits to both sides of a choice.

A question to which I really don't know the answer is this: Would the Development Academy activities in the spring be so time-intensive that a player literally could not participate in the Academy and high school ball, as long as the high school coaches are willing to share time for the benefit of the player? Or are there other reasons for not wanting to allow both?

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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach Chass]
      #152405 - 05/30/11 01:44 PM

I want free choice for kids....and I don't want dumb constraints put on them that says if they take an AP literature class they must also take AP calculus. Thats dumb.

However, if Academy expanded into spring for SC and Fall for NC kids.....true conflict would exist for kids who want to do both.

My son was encouraged to play school soccer this spring and I looked at the schedule. He would never make a practice and I think there were 5 games where there wouldn't be a conflict. Five. Is that worth doing?

High school soccer plays a lot. More or less 4 days a week, sometimes 5 days a week, in between practices and games. Now you add something else to it like Academy? Academy practices 3-4 times per week. Where would be the time to do school ball?

High school kids typically aren't allowed to play two school sports in the same season. If you play football, you can't also run cross country. If you play baseball, you can't also play soccer.

To me that is a better parallel.

No one should tell a kid who plays football in the fall that if he plays a sport in the spring it has to be baseball. If he wants to play soccer then have at it. But, I am ok with the rule that tells a kid that if he plays football he can't run cross country too. Even if you can jam 5 events into a season, its not good for that athletes body.....to do so.

USSF is wanting to improve this country's top soccer players and rightly or wrongly, is looking at Academy going year round as a path to do so. I don't see it as a conspiracy or elitist or anything else other than an honest attempt at improvement. And the logic behind the move.....makes sense. Agree or disagree there is logic to it.


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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152406 - 05/30/11 02:20 PM

There is a logic to it, indeed. And you're right in your analogy that high school kids aren't typically allowed to play two sports in the same season; if you're playing football, you can't play cross country which is also in the fall, but you can play soccer in the spring.

The analogy breaks down a little, though, when you take into account there are no high school sports that take up multiple sports seasons. We have fall, winter, and spring sports seasons, which allow players to take part in different things at different times, so it's easier to justify saying you can't take part in two sports in the same season when you can also say there are different seasons availabe to do different things.

Football is one of the most-followed and biggest moneymaking sports in the U.S. It offers many more opportunities for college scholarships and professional contracts than soccer. By the same logic, we could produce better football players if we required football training and competition in two seasons; keep the players involved on the gridiron year round rather than letting them digress into other activities that they may enjoy, but won't necessarily help them to become better football players. I mean, having them play other sports like baseball or tennis or soccer takes them even farther away from their football development than playing high school soccer takes them from Academy soccer, right? They're wandering off into a whole different sport, skill set, type of conditioning, etc. We could make better football players if we kept them in football year round.

Yet we don't do that. Why not?

My question, stated as clearly as I can put it, is this:

Can we provide the advantages that Academy training obviously gives to players during the fall season, without also REQUIRING that they commit to the spring season to the exclusion of all other opportunities as well? Or are we telling them they can't have a piece of what the Academy offers in the fall unless they are also willing to give up everything else in the spring?

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Edited by Coach Chass (05/30/11 02:26 PM)


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Belligerent
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach Chass]
      #152407 - 05/30/11 02:56 PM

One reason we don't do that with other sports - we don't need to - the U.S. has the best football/baseball/basketball players/teams in the world; and it's been that way since...forever? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

U.S. soccer, relative to the rest of the world, is broke (no pun intended). It needs to be fixed.


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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Belligerent]
      #152408 - 05/30/11 03:27 PM

you forgot the $ factor, too many soccer coaches have found a way to make a career out of yth soccer.

yth baseball, basketball & fball don't, yet still produce

well, except for the hs coaches do get paid , which brings us back to our dilemma.

Edited by sandman (05/30/11 03:31 PM)


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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Belligerent]
      #152409 - 05/30/11 03:32 PM

No argument there. Of course, one very noticeable difference between the U.S. and other, more "successful" soccer nations goes beyond any differences in technical and tactical skills; it's a national passion for the sport. Teams and players tend to feed or starve on the passion of their fans. South Africa had no chance to win the last World Cup, yet "The Boys" still had a nation behind them, and even though England choked, I'd say their national passion will push them to get better.

Question is, can we cultivate the kind of national passion that elevates players and teams by further separating our best soccer players from the grassroots fans who might otherwise learn to watch, appreciate, and support them as they grow into the national/international spotlight? Does it matter how good they are if few people actually feel a kinship to them? Can we develop highly-skilled players AND help create that bond between them and the rest of the nation?

Just thinking out loud...perfectly valid arguments to be made either way. Chicken or the egg...does a highly skilled national team create passion in its fans, or do passionate fans elevate a skilled national team?

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Hurst66
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152410 - 05/30/11 03:40 PM

Quote:

High school kids typically aren't allowed to play two school sports in the same season. If you play football, you can't also run cross country. If you play baseball, you can't also play soccer.

To me that is a better parallel.




I wish that girl from Hilton Head would have adhered to the norm, rather than the exception.

http://sc.milesplit.com/athletes/71675

--------------------
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.


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Anthony Pelton
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Belligerent]
      #152411 - 05/30/11 03:58 PM

Not to contradict Belligerant's example but how many other countries on the planet play American football?
Last 2 World Baseball Championships(which were hosted by us) 1 fourth place finish.
World Basketball Ch. held every 4 years since 1950, won by us 4 times.
As recently as 2006, FIFA ranked the US 4th in the world out of over 200--not bad.


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jimmy2469
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152412 - 05/30/11 04:25 PM

Quote:

How many parents of academically gifted students would tell their child not to take AP classes, but instead take CP classes so they could be in class with their friends?

Let me re-phrase.....why not argue for the elimination of Honors and AP level classes and simply offer CP or TP classes?






Big Daddy Maybe this is just me and my experience, but every kid that qualifies for AP classes can take AP classes, with minor exceptions. As has been stated many times in the post, all the best players are not playing DA. And you or someone else tried to make the excuse that it could be money, timing, family conflicts while leaving out another major factor. The kids are intentionally left off because they are from the wrong area, wrong school, would replace a popular but not as good player etc. Do not make it like this is an altruistic league with no personal axes to grind. If you are going to use the AP argument then let all the kids that qualify play DA or find a better way to select players then the current highly flawed method.


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Anthony Pelton
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: jimmy2469]
      #152413 - 05/30/11 05:34 PM

I realize the major theme of this thread involves the Academy vs High School but seems to have sidebarred into the inadequate player development here vs the rest of the competitive world and it got me to thinking.
We have qualified for every World Cup since 1990, defeated #1(in the world at that time) and current World Cup holder, Spain 2-0 on nuetral ground( breaking a 35 game unbeaten streak)in a game we dominated.
Two days later we lost 3-2 to 5 time World Cup champ Brasil--all of this, 20 months ago.
We won our group in World Cup play( first time ever) and lost 2-1 on a late goal in elimination play.
Obviously our player development is in shambles.


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Kevin HeiseAdministrator
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152416 - 05/30/11 07:26 PM

Quote:

I realize the major theme of this thread involves the Academy vs High School but seems to have sidebarred into the inadequate player development here vs the rest of the competitive world and it got me to thinking.
We have qualified for every World Cup since 1990, defeated #1(in the world at that time) and current World Cup holder, Spain 2-0 on nuetral ground( breaking a 35 game unbeaten streak)in a game we dominated.
Two days later we lost 3-2 to 5 time World Cup champ Brasil--all of this, 20 months ago.
We won our group in World Cup play( first time ever) and lost 2-1 on a late goal in elimination play.
Obviously our player development is in shambles.




Amen Anthony! I made this same statement earlier. Just because other parts of the world do it a certain way, doesn't mean it works for all. There's more than one way to skin a cat.

I'd love to see results of teams trying to implement "Barcelona" style soccer without the Barcelona type of players. I can tell you what the result is going to be.

I would be interested in a copy of the email that was sent out stating that high school soccer would not be an option for Developmental Academy players. I'd like to read it for myself. Please forward to kheise@sc.rr.com. Thanks!


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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Hurst66]
      #152419 - 05/30/11 07:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

High school kids typically aren't allowed to play two school sports in the same season. If you play football, you can't also run cross country. If you play baseball, you can't also play soccer.

To me that is a better parallel.




I wish that girl from Hilton Head would have adhered to the norm, rather than the exception.

http://sc.milesplit.com/athletes/71675




thats a girl with great time mgt, good for her!
she's not even built like the typical 5000 meter maid


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goldeneagle86
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Belligerent]
      #152421 - 05/30/11 08:27 PM

The US has the best sports in the world? Gee baseball has some pretty dominant players from other countries, our pro hoopsters seem to struggle when they play against european teams and have to follow the rules that were invented here like not travelling. The only one i will give you is football because it isnt played elsewhere and if it is (canada) it is played by guys who couldnt make it in the nfl.
Very good article in espn mag written by an NBA player that may shed some light--he reaches the conclusion that the real problem with american sports is that our coaches tend to live off their players natural abilities rather than trying to develop new abilities and skills. Ever hear of Dirk Nowitzki? He was a soccer star before turning to basketball. What makes him unique is that he can dribble, shoot, AND rebound despite being almost 7 feeet tall. Heck Shaq can rebound but he cant even walk without tripping over his feet. Why because all of his coaches from youth up saw a tall guy and stuck him in the middle to rebound and never taught him other skills.
I will stop rambling but my point is HS is the only place (with theexception of private schools) where coaches have to work with what they get. CLub,academy, college etc.. always try to find players and plug them in to certain positions instead of training them to play the game at any position.


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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: goldeneagle86]
      #152422 - 05/30/11 08:39 PM

I have two players that are in the "Academy Pool" in Mt. Pleasant and one of their parents told me that they were told that they had to be "in the pool" for a year before they would be considered for the actual team. I wonder if anyone else had heard this.

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Alister DeLong
Stratford High School
Boys Soccer


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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152424 - 05/30/11 08:59 PM

what pool$ are you talking about

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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152425 - 05/30/11 09:06 PM

My high school players tried out for the Academy teams that are organized through Mt. Pleasant. I noticed that the teams were already listed on the website before they even went to tryout. When they got there, they were told they would have to train in the "pool" of players for a year before they would be considered. Which means they are wanting these kids to come in a play on the "elite" teams for the SCU-MP for a year before being considered.
I just wondered if this parent was mistaken of if this was true. It seems of a way to make kids come play for that club with the hope to make the Academy team but if they weren't good enough to make it at U-16, what are the chances they will make it next year?
Maybe if they skip the high school season, since I am going to hinder their development apparently, they will make it.

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Alister DeLong
Stratford High School
Boys Soccer


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HappyDaddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152426 - 05/30/11 09:37 PM

No email has been sent to SCUtd DA players regarding HS soccer. There's no reason to gin up the rumor mill. As I have said, I think the day will come when all DA players will be required to choose between Academy and HS, as has happened in other parts of the country. But it won't be as soon as 2012 in South Carolina.

Regarding "pool" players: There is no such thing. DA teams have "full-time" players and "developmental players." Developmental players are limited in the number of appearances they are allowed to make, and they pay commensurately lower fees. They are, however, free to train with the team as much as possible. Developmental players are required by DA rules to play for a DA club. If they prefer to play their club soccer at a different club, that's fine - but they can't be a Developmental player for an Academy team. There is no rule or practice of requiring a player to spend a certain amount of time as a Developmental player. Some will transition quickly to full-time, some slowly, and some not at all.

All coaches are encouraged to recommend potential DA players to Coach Strickland, Director of Coaching for ScUtd FC DA. Our coaches are continuously on the lookout for players, but no doubt miss a few.

Finally, I have not suggested that any HS coach(es) is or are the issue. The theory that informs the concept of year 'round Academy has far more to do with continuity of training in the Federation manner, and, most importantly, continuity of very high level competition.

Rather than perpetuate rumors, please contact Rob Strickland if you have real questions.

Edited by HappyDaddy (05/30/11 09:41 PM)


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Anthony Pelton
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: HappyDaddy]
      #152428 - 05/30/11 10:01 PM

No one said players had been sent emails. I said I had received a few--all saying players would be told(for the third time). I have no idea when it will be done or if it will be done.

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HappyDaddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152429 - 05/30/11 10:23 PM

Good grief. I'm telling you they haven't gotten any emails and won't be getting any emails (or any other communications) telling them they can't play HS in 2012. After that, I can't say, because I don't know. If you or they have any questions, for the third time, call Rob Strickland.

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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152430 - 05/30/11 10:52 PM

delong:
no, you mu$t be mi$taken, youth $occer i$ very altrui$tic & all about developing our young player$ for the good ole red/white & blue.
nothing fi$hy here folk$, ju$t move along....& $upport your local club of cour$e.

Edited by sandman (05/30/11 10:56 PM)


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152431 - 05/30/11 11:49 PM

It's crazy how this topic is spreading. Even ESPN has decided to write a article on it.

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/6520002/mls-academies-kill-college-game-soccer

They also seem to point out that year round Academy programs that start recruiting young kids might drain the college talent pool. One of the biggest draft systems we have in America might change for soccer. Any thoughts on this?


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Soccer16
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: The Truth]
      #152434 - 05/31/11 08:00 AM

Until the Academy begins to actually use it's developmental pool players in any meaningful way they will struggle with a negative perception. Players must feel as if they are part of something and not just another number.

Does the academy select the most skilled players or do they put together a team with their invites? A defensive player may be selected over a more skilled forward due to team mix. A team player may be passed over in favor of a kid from a bigger school because of normal biais.

Ultimately the goal is to build the best possible national team through this program. In my opinion the Academy needs to learn team building. More coaches need to get into a players head and what triggers their motivation.

I like the fact they are now selecting players rather than basing it on a two day tryout.


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Alister DeLong
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Soccer16]
      #152435 - 05/31/11 08:43 AM

Great article. Thanks for sharing.

In American sports, the way to the pros is through college. That is just always the way it has been.
Soccer, that isn't the case. You can be 20 years old and be the best player in the world. Is this true for any other sport? Maybe tennis? (Tennis doesn't really apply to the USA but best example I could think of) I think for most sports, players don't hit their prime until mid 20's (see Lebron James/Tiger Woods).

Society says "You have to go to college in order to be successful" but is that really the case when it comes to pro athletes?

What if they blow their knee out and can't play any more?

Then they can go to college like the rest of us. You don't miss out on college just because you don't enroll when you are 18. Sure you might be the "old" person in the class but you can still go.

Sure the average person, like myself, needed to go to college to have a decent job. 17 year old kids, that may or may not be in their prime should live the dream while they have the chance.

Younger pros? Is that the answer?

Is their a difference in the MLS Academy's and the one that is here in Charleston?

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HappyDaddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Alister DeLong]
      #152436 - 05/31/11 08:52 AM

Quote:

Is their a difference in the MLS Academy's and the one that is here in Charleston?




Yes and no. Most (perhaps all) MLS clubs have a youth academy program similar to those at professional European and Latin American clubs. Most, (perhaps all) of those MLS academy programs include teams that participate in the US Soccer Development Academy program. So, they are literally different, but greatly overlap.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: HappyDaddy]
      #152440 - 05/31/11 09:54 AM

Academy is a good thing. Club is a good thing. High school is a good thing. It would be a shame if one (or two) crowded out the other.
Separate point: Comments about the relative merits of players in this state are misguided at best. Example: Cole Seiler is a very good player who (no doubt) would play for the U18 Academy side. Conversely, a bunch of U18 Academy kids would start for Cole's club side. My point is, NOBODY among the top 30-or-so 93s and 94s is so good that he serves as a stellar example of a single "right" way to develop youth players.
And that includes such anointed "stars" as young Master Khouri.


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Kevin HeiseAdministrator
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152445 - 05/31/11 10:34 AM

FWIW ... I've been informed by folks from the Development Academy that under NO circumstances has any email been sent that stated that a player had to quit high school soccer if involved with DA for next year.

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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Kevin Heise]
      #152450 - 05/31/11 10:53 AM

Correct. And that you, Kevin.

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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Kevin Heise]
      #152460 - 05/31/11 12:25 PM

Does it even matter? in about 5 years, they will devise some new program that will be "better" than the academies. I always like how the soccer leaders in this country put a new name or label on a soccer team, and it is all of a sudden better.

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Belligerent
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: James Gray]
      #152487 - 06/01/11 05:50 AM

Ok, golden and Coach Pelton, how about this then: where do the best football, baseball and basketball players in the world want to play, given their first choice? (in general) I submit that the location they all want to play is somewhere in the U.S., not Canada, Europe or elsewhere. I don't recall any of our best athletes in those sports leaving the country to play, but I do believe some of the best come here. Again, I'm sure you can point out exceptions to the rule, but I don't believe that to be the case for the most part.

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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Belligerent]
      #152496 - 06/01/11 09:37 AM

For what it's worth, the path to American professional sports is evolving continually, and does not NECESSARILY include college.
In baseball, for example, many top American prospects sign their first pro contracts straight out of high school. Many choose the college route, but comparatively few of those stay four years.
In basketball, college if a mere formality for the best (one-and-done) prospects. Some H.S. kids now actually begin their pro careers with European clubs, rather than spend a year in college.
Football is the best example of college offering a de facto minor league system, largely due to NFL draft rules negotiated as part of the league's CBA.
Most North American kids in the NHL played at least some Major Junior hockey, mixed with college hockey. But again, the cream of the crop is entering the league in their teens.
...
To bring this back to the thread, I would point out that soccer's adherents are way too quick to consign "prospects" to the scrap heap in their middle or late teens, when every other professional sport recognizes the potential for development in later years.


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Belligerent
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152511 - 06/01/11 12:10 PM

Soccer16,

What makes you think the Academy does not currently use it’s developmental “pool” players in any “meaningful way?” Is this the opinion of a current developmental player (or parent) you have spoken to, your personal opinion, or something else? And what exactly do you mean by “meaningful way”? Keep in mind that the developmental players typically play on other teams that are their number one priorities. They go to Academy games/practices when it works for them.

Regarding team selection, is there a player you feel should be on the roster who is not? If so, do you know for a fact they were not offered a spot? (vs them being offered a spot, and deciding to go another route) Looking at the number of players on the rosters, I would have a very difficult time believing there is a deserving player out there who tried out, but was not offered a spot. I would more easily believe that after or during tryouts, but prior to the rosters being posted, the player (and parents) discussed their situation with the staff, and decided to go in another direction (for whatever reasons). I’m not going to tell you it did not happen, stated as a fact; I would just have a hard time believing it based on what/who I know (which is certainly not everyone & everything) and the amount of time we’ve been involved.

I'm also not sure what you mean by school bias – there are players who attend schools that range from the smallest (including AC Flora) to the largest, with everything in between.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Belligerent]
      #152515 - 06/01/11 01:16 PM

FWIW, I'll gripe as soon as anyone here, and I haven't seen a major problem with Academy as pertains to player selection, player development, playing time, and promotion of DP players to FT status.
Opportunities to "try out" are pretty clearly advertised, and (in general) a good number of kids turn out. Those who are slotted into the Developmental Pool receive opportunities to train and occasionally play with the Full-Time kids. Kids who stick with it have a fair shot at promotion on a permanent basis.
My impression is, some very good players choose NOT to play Academy soccer for perfectly good reasons: existing club affiliation, time-management, cost, etc. Academy is not for everyone. Nor is CESA, SCUMP, etc., etc., etc. Good players find their place with the situation OF THEIR CHOICE.


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James Gray
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152522 - 06/01/11 02:17 PM

There have been kids at some of the better high school talking about whether or not the academy teams were benefical to them. I am sure that you will probably get some that will just bow out of playing academy ball to play elsewhere that allows them some choices.

--------------------
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goldeneagle86
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152523 - 06/01/11 02:32 PM

Lets not single kids out - FYI you are wrong about a few things - Seiler could easily play on the DA team but many of the DA players could NOT make his current team - some tried and didnt get picked so they wound up at the DA. Also Kouri now plays for a team that is head and shoulders above the DA team in his age group which also has several players who couldnt make that team. The teams that Seiler and Kouri now play for dont go out and activeley "recruit" new players they rely on their reputations to do the recruiting.

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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: goldeneagle86]
      #152525 - 06/01/11 02:53 PM

goldeneagle, i think you're wrong.

Cole Seiler is a great player....but my guess is that his not playing in the Academy has a lot more to do with where he lives, then it does anything else.

GSP kids have to drive to Columbia or Orangeburg to train. Or Charlotte or Atlanta. Thats a long haul. For a highly talented kid that lives in the middle of nowhere, maybe thats a card you play. But for a kid that lives in the middle of CESA country, when confronted with the choice of CESA with limited travel to practice, versus Academy and huge travel, 3-4 nights a week.....its a no brainer.

Has nothing to do with which program is better.

This whole thread....isn't about the comparative merits of CESA, DISA, MESA, or.....uh, the Academy. Gotta get an end vowel on that last one.

The thread is about.....the merits of year round training for the Academy, versus the current mix of Academy and HS. You extend that to year round level club if you want to and substitute CESA for Academy and its a similar argument.

The rest of it is just "my dad is stronger than your dad....."


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152528 - 06/01/11 02:57 PM

One other comment......CESA was offered an Academy slot in Yr 1 and turned it down. They applied for the Academy last year I believe, and they were turned down becasue of oversaturation in the southeast. Hopefully soon.....that will change and CESA will be in the Academy.

If CESA were Academy......then all the CESA kids would be in the Academy mix and the "my dad is stronger than your dad" argument would be moot. Would be interesting to see of SC could support 2 Academy teams.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152529 - 06/01/11 03:01 PM

GOLDENEAGLE86: Please reread what I posted.

Example: Cole Seiler is a very good player who (no doubt) would play for the U18 Academy side. Conversely, a bunch of U18 Academy kids would start for Cole's club side. My point is, NOBODY among the top 30-or-so 93s and 94s is so good that he serves as a stellar example of a single "right" way to develop youth players.
And that includes such anointed "stars" as young Master Khouri.

What's the beef?


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Soccer16
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152533 - 06/01/11 03:24 PM

Belligerent - my answer to your questions is personal experience. Just curious but how is the Academy developing these players? And when you say "when it works for them?" to whom are you referring the players or coaches? Hmmm?

As to the selection method I have no beef with their past selections. I just don't believe that a two day tryout is adequate for any elite team selection. Now remember they have changed the selection process this year. I have passed on my belief that a Individualized Training/Promotion Plan should be used by the clubs. Public schools have an IEP for each student passed from teacher to teacher year to year with input. A soccer player than could build a profile for future selections based on past performance as well as a tryout. This would give all coaches (from years gone by, relocated coaches, etc.) to have input and take into consideration game situations, handling of pressure, and composure.

There is a bias toward larger schools fielding better players. Overall a larger school is able to field a complete team and should be more successful. How does a good small school player show his skills when surrounded by lesser quality players as compared to those at a larger school. In a team sport it is very difficult and I am not saying this is the case. As noted on other posts reporters and fans tend to go to larger school games. Fair or not the view of a player from Irmo (or any large school) will be given greater credence than a small school since coaches are unable to attend many opposing teams games, etc.

I hope my discussion adds some clarity to my previous post. I believe the academy is a worthwhile venture for the future of soccer. It just wasn't very helpful in my situation. I am sure it will improve over time ...I just don't have time.


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Soccer16]
      #152537 - 06/01/11 04:44 PM

I really don't have any clue what you are talking about. I really don't think where a kid goes to high school matters a whit to these guys. Big school/small school is irrelevant if the kid can play.

I know for a fact that Academy coaches go to non Academy games to look at prospective players. I know for a fact that interested players are always welcome to contact Academy coaches and come participate in training sessions. There is a lot more to the selection process than a 1 or 2 day tryout process.

Not sure about your IEP proposal either. My son gets a formal review at the end of every year and he gets several informal reviews during the course of the year. Not sure the Academy coaches really care about about what someone's u11 or u13 coach thought about them. Or their high school coach for that matter. They see what they see.

This isn't directed at you Soccer16.....just a general comment. I'm really amazed when I read some of the comments on this thread at the total lack of understanding
of what Academy is and what its not.

Some of it is the readers and contributors to this forum having a primarily HS bent to their experiences. Another part of it is that the club that has historically been the most successful at the highest level in the state (CESA), doesn't participate in Academy.

I would say this.......anyone with a kid who is 14-15 years old or older who is a pretty good player, if you are within an hour of an Academy program, you owe it to yourself to make arrangements to train several times in a row with one of the teams. Compare that training.....to what you get elsewhere. I have YET to meet a kid who didn't step off an Academy training field at the end of a session that didn't say Wow. And that comment includes kids who play region 3.

The top kids at CESA or DISA or MESA....can play anywhere. The difference in Academy is the depth and breadth of talent on the field and that competitive aspect is what fires the intensity of the training sessions. Don't believe it? Think its someone drinking the koolaid? Then take your kid and go check it out for yourself.

And if your a coach....high school or other wise...pretty certain you would be welcome to go observe a session or 2.


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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152538 - 06/01/11 05:08 PM

I don't think the real question in this thread is about the quality of Academy training...I can only speak for myself, but I'm certain it is of top quality and highly beneficial. That was never an issue as far as I'm concerned. My only question is, in order for a player to get ANY of that top-quality Academy training, is it necessary for them to get it TO THE EXCLUSION OF EVERYTHING ELSE...or can we provide opportunities for them to take advantage of this great training and still leave room for them to exercise other options as well? Must it be all-year-all-Academy-or-nothing?

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Coach Tim
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152539 - 06/01/11 05:11 PM

Quote:


...pretty certain you would be welcome to go observe a session or 2.




You can learn a lot just by observing.

Thank you for the invite, I would enjoy that. It is easy to get locked into our own training grounds and not having or making the time to venture out.

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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach Chass]
      #152541 - 06/01/11 05:23 PM

Quote:

I don't think the real question in this thread is about the quality of Academy training...I can only speak for myself, but I'm certain it is of top quality and highly beneficial. That was never an issue as far as I'm concerned. My only question is, in order for a player to get ANY of that top-quality Academy training, is it necessary for them to get it TO THE EXCLUSION OF EVERYTHING ELSE...or can we provide opportunities for them to take advantage of this great training and still leave room for them to exercise other options as well? Must it be all-year-all-Academy-or-nothing?





Honestly no. In between school and soccer thats all my son has time for. If he was a talented soccer player and also a talented musician or into drama or another sport....and he really wanted to chase more than 1 dream, then Academy probably isn't the right path. And thats without a year round program.

He hasn't played another sport since 7th grade basketball becasue of soccer. And that soccer interference predates his Academy participation.


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach Tim]
      #152542 - 06/01/11 05:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:


...pretty certain you would be welcome to go observe a session or 2.




You can learn a lot just by observing.

Thank you for the invite, I would enjoy that. It is easy to get locked into our own training grounds and not having or making the time to venture out.




Not an invite. Just an observation. If you want an invite...contact one of the Academy programs and make your request. Others do it......if you are interested, go for it.


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Hurst66
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152543 - 06/01/11 05:45 PM

Quote:

Honestly no. In between school and soccer thats all my son has time for. If he was a talented soccer player and also a talented musician or into drama or another sport....and he really wanted to chase women, then Academy probably isn't the right path. And thats without a year round program.




Wow. I thought he was a "ladies man"! Like his dad!

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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Hurst66]
      #152545 - 06/01/11 06:05 PM

You're a mess Hurst.

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Hurst66
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152547 - 06/01/11 06:29 PM

Quote:

You're a mess Hurst.




Yeah...you're probably right. It's been a rough week.

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Belligerent
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Hurst66]
      #152552 - 06/01/11 07:37 PM

Soccer16, "when it works for them" was a poor choice of words on my part. I couldn't think of the right words at the time, and just threw that in. To expound (and Big Daddy, or whomever, please correct me if I'm wrong on this), a Developmental Player's first obligation is to their regular club team (again, I use the term "regular" for lack of a better one), i.e., their regular club team's practices and matches always come first. If there is an Academy practice or match on a particular day, and the player's regular club team does not have anything scheduled, then the Developmental player can attend the Academy event. Now, there could be a conflict between the two, and the player choose to attend the Academy event, but I believe Academy personnel will pretty much always tell a player to attend their regular club event (practice/game). Does that clarify?

Are you serious when you ask me "how is the Academy developing these players?" Maybe Daddy can cover that one; that's a whole nuther thread, and several pages by itself. I mean, I personally feel comfortable in my son's coaches' abilities to train him properly; but come on, US Soccer sends representatives to evaluate Academy training sessions on a regular basis. And they certainly don't mind pointing out things they don't like. These evaluators are pretty high-level coaches themselves – you think you know more than them? I dang sure don't.

I agree with Daddy regarding your comments on bias. Just look at the rosters – there are kids from schools of all sizes – and trust me, some of the schools these kids play for are terrible (I am not naming names here, and that has nothing – well, maybe a little, to do with their respective coaches). In fact, there is currently a full time player from AC Flora (NOT saying AC Flora is terrible) – so I'm really not sure where you're getting the big/small school thing from.

I do think I know what you're alluding to regarding IEPs and promotion plans (whatever that stuff is); you have posted before about how you don't like the varying/different processes for choosing rosters from club to club. As it relates to the Academy, I don't think you really gave it enough time to be able to form an educated opinion. If I recall correctly, your son made it to a handful of practices; maybe a half-dozen? And he played in the match in NC the day after the high school state championships last year? (and I thought he played well, having been to so few practices). If I am at least in the ballpark with the number of training sessions he attended, I'm not sure exactly what you were expecting. My son rarely missed a training session last season, but he sat the bench a good portion of the time. There were a good number of very good midfielders on that roster – are you thinking that 5 or 6 good practices, and your son was going to be taking over the position of a player who'd been training 4-days-a-week for months?

Honestly, I think if you had truly given it more time, you would have been pleasantly surprised by the amount of playing time he would get; I just don't think you gave it nearly enough time.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152563 - 06/02/11 08:48 AM





He hasn't played another sport since 7th grade basketball becasue of soccer. And that soccer interference predates his Academy participation.






As a coach and teacher for 20 years, it is hard for me to understand why a kid who is 13 or 14 should only play one sport. If this is the direction we are going, then a lot of kids will miss out on what sports has to offer. I know that soccer is not the only sport that does this, BB is not far behind club soccer and if Football ever becomes a club like setting, look out! There are so many kids I see who only play one sport, hoping to play at the next level. What many don't understand is that, only the top 1% to 5% will ever get that chance, that is if they have the grades to even be considered. But that is another topic.


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach J]
      #152570 - 06/02/11 10:57 AM

Deep or wide Coach J.

I think the attributes that make a high school football player attractive to an SEC or ACC college......are pretty different from the attributes that attract an ACC soccer coach to a high school aged soccer player.

Its so much more about physicality.....strength, size and speed with football.

My guess is that Steve Spurrier would look at a kid that was 6'5 and 300 pounds, benching 350 pounds and running a 5 flat 40.....and say, i don't care about his footwork, I can teach him that. But i can't teach size and I can' teach speed. And if the kid has an ornery side.......perfect!!!!

Whereas I would think most ACC soccer coaches....while looking for athleticism, size, etc......are also wanting to see excellent technical and tactical ability.

Sports like soccer which require refined skills specific to the sport... ...can't be compared to a sport like football.


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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152571 - 06/02/11 11:26 AM

Quote:

Deep or wide Coach J.

I think the attributes that make a high school football player attractive to an SEC or ACC college......are pretty different from the attributes that attract an ACC soccer coach to a high school aged soccer player.

Its so much more about physicality.....strength, size and speed with football.

My guess is that Steve Spurrier would look at a kid that was 6'5 and 300 pounds, benching 350 pounds and running a 5 flat 40.....and say, i don't care about his footwork, I can teach him that. But i can't teach size and I can' teach speed. And if the kid has an ornery side.......perfect!!!!

Whereas I would think most ACC soccer coaches....while looking for athleticism, size, etc......are also wanting to see excellent technical and tactical ability.

Sports like soccer which require refined skills specific to the sport... ...can't be compared to a sport like football.




you're way off here....your fb analogy might work for div2 or 3 fball, but not div1 & certainly not the sec...give me a break


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Anthony Pelton]
      #152573 - 06/02/11 11:34 AM

I have to agree and you only zeroed in on football. Look at Dirk and Akeem (sp?) soccer stars in their youth that are now considered two of the best basketball players at their positions ever. Would they have acheived what they did if they just played one sport and only one sport growing up. I agree practice makes perfect but there is something to be said for the kid that expands his skill set by playing other sports and also does not get burnt out because all he did was play a single sport since he was 10.

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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: The Truth]
      #152574 - 06/02/11 11:35 AM

Quote:

It's crazy how this topic is spreading. Even ESPN has decided to write a article on it.

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/6520002/mls-academies-kill-college-game-soccer

They also seem to point out that year round Academy programs that start recruiting young kids might drain the college talent pool. One of the biggest draft systems we have in America might change for soccer. Any thoughts on this?




The author of this ESPN piece was a guest on The Football Show this morning on Sirius/XM Radio. He spoke with Charlie and Giorgio about academies, but specifically referenced MLS Academies. Really made no mention of traditional youth soccer club academies other than to say that the Dallas Texans have prohibited their academy players from participating in high school soccer.

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Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.


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Hurst66
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: jimmy2469]
      #152575 - 06/02/11 11:40 AM

Quote:

I have to agree and you only zeroed in on football. Look at Dirk and Akeem (sp?) soccer stars in their youth that are now considered two of the best basketball players at their positions ever. Would they have acheived what they did if they just played one sport and only one sport growing up. I agree practice makes perfect but there is something to be said for the kid that expands his skill set by playing other sports and also does not get burnt out because all he did was play a single sport since he was 10.




Dirk and Akeem. Physical specimens. Would probably succeed at the top level in any sport that they pursue. They are 1 in a million (maybe even greater).

For the normal "Joe", who is not nearly as athletically gifted, perhaps he has to go the extra mile and focus in on one sport. Practice makes perfect.....the only shot "Joe" would have to even remotely compete with Dirk and Akeem.

But again, you may argue......."at what price"? Life is full of sacrafices (choices).

--------------------
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.


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Notsofastfriend
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Hurst66]
      #152576 - 06/02/11 11:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have to agree and you only zeroed in on football. Look at Dirk and Akeem (sp?) soccer stars in their youth that are now considered two of the best basketball players at their positions ever. Would they have acheived what they did if they just played one sport and only one sport growing up. I agree practice makes perfect but there is something to be said for the kid that expands his skill set by playing other sports and also does not get burnt out because all he did was play a single sport since he was 10.




Dirk and Akeem. Physical specimens. Would probably succeed at the top level in any sport that they pursue. They are 1 in a million (maybe even greater).

For the normal "Joe", who is not nearly as athletically gifted, perhaps he has to go the extra mile and focus in on one sport. Practice makes perfect.....the only shot "Joe" would have to even remotely compete with Dirk and Akeem.

But again, you may argue......."at what price"? Life is full of sacrafices (choices).




Can't buy the physical specimen argument. Look at Chad Johnson and Manute(sp) Bol. Ocho couldn't make the Sporting and Bol...well, we all saw how that turned out.

There are always exceptions. The question that needs to be asked is where would those guys be (Dirk and Akeem) if they had NOT gone into the development program

Edited by Notsofastfriend (06/02/11 11:46 AM)


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Notsofastfriend]
      #152578 - 06/02/11 12:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I have to agree and you only zeroed in on football. Look at Dirk and Akeem (sp?) soccer stars in their youth that are now considered two of the best basketball players at their positions ever. Would they have acheived what they did if they just played one sport and only one sport growing up. I agree practice makes perfect but there is something to be said for the kid that expands his skill set by playing other sports and also does not get burnt out because all he did was play a single sport since he was 10.




Dirk and Akeem. Physical specimens. Would probably succeed at the top level in any sport that they pursue. They are 1 in a million (maybe even greater).

For the normal "Joe", who is not nearly as athletically gifted, perhaps he has to go the extra mile and focus in on one sport. Practice makes perfect.....the only shot "Joe" would have to even remotely compete with Dirk and Akeem.

But again, you may argue......."at what price"? Life is full of sacrafices (choices).




Can't buy the physical specimen argument. Look at Chad Johnson and Manute(sp) Bol. Ocho couldn't make the Sporting and Bol...well, we all saw how that turned out.

There are always exceptions. The question that needs to be asked is where would those guys be (Dirk and Akeem) if they had NOT gone into the development program




I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or not. But your examples suport my point, IMO. Chad Johnson/86.....All Pro football player, World class athlete, world class specimin....no skill to compete at a comparitively minor league level.


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: jimmy2469]
      #152579 - 06/02/11 12:58 PM

Quote:

I have to agree and you only zeroed in on football. Look at Dirk and Akeem (sp?) soccer stars in their youth that are now considered two of the best basketball players at their positions ever. Would they have acheived what they did if they just played one sport and only one sport growing up. I agree practice makes perfect but there is something to be said for the kid that expands his skill set by playing other sports and also does not get burnt out because all he did was play a single sport since he was 10.




There is something to be said for the old 3 sport athlete.

But thats not what this thread is about. The status quo has soccer players playing club from August thru December and HS from Feb thru mid May. Jan is usually a HS conditioning month.

The argument......is that the top level player woul dbe better served developmentally by taking the time spent playing HS soccer.....and continuing on with Academy level training and competiton.

The status quo doesn't offer any more or less flexibility in terms of playing otehr sports. And the increased Academy time.....doesn't require the player to play more soccer. It substitutes Academy soccer for school soccer.

But its still soccer.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152580 - 06/02/11 01:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Deep or wide Coach J.

I think the attributes that make a high school football player attractive to an SEC or ACC college......are pretty different from the attributes that attract an ACC soccer coach to a high school aged soccer player.

Its so much more about physicality.....strength, size and speed with football.

My guess is that Steve Spurrier would look at a kid that was 6'5 and 300 pounds, benching 350 pounds and running a 5 flat 40.....and say, i don't care about his footwork, I can teach him that. But i can't teach size and I can' teach speed. And if the kid has an ornery side.......perfect!!!!

Whereas I would think most ACC soccer coaches....while looking for athleticism, size, etc......are also wanting to see excellent technical and tactical ability.

Sports like soccer which require refined skills specific to the sport... ...can't be compared to a sport like football.




you're way off here....your fb analogy might work for div2 or 3 fball, but not div1 & certainly not the sec...give me a break




Ok....exaggeration for sure. But do you really mean to tell me that a 6'5" 300 pound high school offensive lineman who is strong as a horse, has quick feet, and has a bit of a nasty streak.....isn't going to be appealing to a college football coach? You think if someone told the ol Ball Coach about this kid in Chester that I described above...he wouldn't be interested in checking him out?

Ok, now....go tell Mark Berson about a 6'5" 300 pound kid with quick feet, strong as a horse and a nasty streak....and what do you think he is thinking? OK, 5'10 165.....does it matter? No. What makes a good soccer player isn't driven by physciality, wheras certain positions in football most certainly are.

You hear about the kid who is 6'8 and can jump out of the gym? Name that sport.


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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152583 - 06/02/11 02:27 PM

yes, there is usually a size requirement at certain positions in fball, hoops & soccer, which in itself doesn't make them qualified for div 1 college play.
soccer needs for quick/fast players who can run all day, which usually results in smaller low center of gravity types that can turn on a dime, fball you gotta have more meat to survive, hoops, gotta have some height first.
these are all minimum general requirements w/exceptions of course.
i really don't get your point


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152584 - 06/02/11 02:40 PM

I think what he is trying to get across is that in soccer skill level is the 1st concern of coaches (maybe factored in with a fitness/endurance standard). In FB or Basket Ball there are physical attributes coaches look at first then they consider skills knowing that many of the skills in those sports can be quickly taught and learned, not mastered but learned enough to play well using those physical advantages they were looking for to begin with!

Look at Charlie Ward, heisman winner (Nat Champ too, I think) but at 5'10"(generous) no NFL team was even really interested in him but he also had great Basket Ball skills so he goes NBA and has marginaly decent career. The key was the skill for BB were there but the size for FB was not, he was a great college athlete but at the next level he was never going to pan out in FB.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: The Chief]
      #152585 - 06/02/11 02:45 PM

Perfectly explained Chief!!! Thank you!!!

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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152586 - 06/02/11 03:12 PM

so theres no physical attribute for the soccer player as the level of play increases, hs-college-pro?
that short little outstanding goalie at the hs level has a shot at manchester united?, that big oversized hs defender has the speed to play barca?
in trying to put soccer in the skill only category, you guys are kind of arguing against yourselves anyway.
in hoops & nfl, you gotta not only have the skill, but gotta have the body style to survive, so, to me, its more exclusive. ....what am i missing besides getting this thread way off track?


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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: The Chief]
      #152588 - 06/02/11 03:19 PM

Quote:

I think what he is trying to get across is that in soccer skill level is the 1st concern of coaches (maybe factored in with a fitness/endurance standard). In FB or Basket Ball there are physical attributes coaches look at first then they consider skills knowing that many of the skills in those sports can be quickly taught and learned, not mastered but learned enough to play well using those physical advantages they were looking for to begin with!

Look at Charlie Ward, heisman winner (Nat Champ too, I think) but at 5'10"(generous) no NFL team was even really interested in him but he also had great Basket Ball skills so he goes NBA and has marginaly decent career. The key was the skill for BB were there but the size for FB was not, he was a great college athlete but at the next level he was never going to pan out in FB.




so cheif, in your 1st paragragh are you saying that the skills for hoops & fball are more easily learned than soccer?


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jimmy2469
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152589 - 06/02/11 04:15 PM

I am with you sandman, soccer skills are not harder to learn then being a QB, WR, or basketball player. Apologizes to the football lineman out there. Each sport requires a base set of attributes. Soccer is a fast and quick guy (for field players), football is size and speed, etc. Given a kids desire and a coaches skill, shouldn't the rest be teachable?

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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152590 - 06/02/11 04:25 PM

Quote:

so theres no physical attribute for the soccer player as the level of play increases, hs-college-pro?
that short little outstanding goalie at the hs level has a shot at manchester united?, that big oversized hs defender has the speed to play barca?
in trying to put soccer in the skill only category, you guys are kind of arguing against yourselves anyway.
in hoops & nfl, you gotta not only have the skill, but gotta have the body style to survive, so, to me, its more exclusive. ....what am i missing besides getting this thread way off track?




Not trying to say soccer is all skill and no athlete. By no means!!!

I played high school football and love it to death. My favorite sport!!

But while there is skill involved with executing a block or making a tackle....I would argue that there is a heckuva lot MORE skill required to be able to hit a golf ball to a precise spot consistently. Or hit a baseball. Or cleanly settle a flighted ball from 30 yards away while in traffic and not lose the ball.

All sport has a ratio between "skill" and required athleticism. I don't know the right ratio, but from personal experience and opinion.....golf is MUCH more heavily weighted towards skill, altho Tiger revolutionized the game from a fitness perspective. Football has skill/technique, but relies a lot more and is much more heavily weighted towards athleticism. Soccer to me is balance, which is what makes it unique. Messi is fast as heck going forward when he receives the ball in space in the middle of the field. But he is also otherworldly skilled to be able to run at full speed in traffic with the ball right on his foot.

I see lots of fast athletic kids in soccer who make that Messi run with the ball.....and lose it immediately because of too big a touch. Thast why kids who are serious about the game need to be training at a high level year round. The skill required to do that....won't be gained over night, or by training a couple of months a year. Or by making runs against lesser competition.

A kid that wants to be a top notch soccer player needs to develop the skills and the athleticism. Messi went to Barcelona at what, 14? You think these European guys get good by taking a 4 month sabatical from their youth club teams so they can train and play with any kid from the neighborhood who wants to play? Does that happen?


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: jimmy2469]
      #152591 - 06/02/11 04:30 PM

Quote:

I am with you sandman, soccer skills are not harder to learn then being a QB, WR, or basketball player. Apologizes to the football lineman out there. Each sport requires a base set of attributes. Soccer is a fast and quick guy (for field players), football is size and speed, etc. Given a kids desire and a coaches skill, shouldn't the rest be teachable?




I'll bet you could get a pickup game of flag football between football players on one side and soccer players on the other. Then have a second pickup game......of soccer. Soccer players versus football players.

Who do you really think would do better.....an outside middie trying to catch a 20 yard pass? Or a linebacker trying to dribble the ball at top speed under pressure?


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jimmy2469
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152592 - 06/02/11 04:36 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I am with you sandman, soccer skills are not harder to learn then being a QB, WR, or basketball player. Apologizes to the football lineman out there. Each sport requires a base set of attributes. Soccer is a fast and quick guy (for field players), football is size and speed, etc. Given a kids desire and a coaches skill, shouldn't the rest be teachable?




I'll bet you could get a pickup game of flag football between football players on one side and soccer players on the other. Then have a second pickup game......of soccer. Soccer players versus football players.

Who do you really think would do better.....an outside middie trying to catch a 20 yard pass? Or a linebacker trying to dribble the ball at top speed under pressure?



Agreed, but take 5 soccer players from the Academy, that only play soccer, and have them play basketball against Calhoun County and the soccer players might not score a single basket in an entire game.


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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152593 - 06/02/11 04:41 PM

hey big daddy, you are all over the place, golf now?

having coached yth baseball, hoops & soccer, soccer was always the default sport that we would guide those boys/girls into when we knew the hand/eye coordination was too frustrating for them. everyone can run & kick a ball & can usually experience some success at the yth level, & gain confidence to work hard & move up, ... baseball & hoops...not so much.


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Big Daddy
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152594 - 06/02/11 05:12 PM

Soccer would be far easier to play for someone who never played it....then would baseball.

But what we're talking about is what it takes to play the game at a high level. Thus the justification for a program charged with developing the majority of the top youth players in the country thinking out loud about expanding the season to overlap HS soccer.

And while its very easy to play the game poorly, its very very difficult to acquire the skills to play at a high level. A number of track stars have dabbled with football with varying degrees of success. Why? Speed translates to football. Speed is a great asset in soccer, but if thats all you got then you don't have a thing.

And yeah, I think from a skill perspective its easier for a normal redblooded American boy to run a route and catch a football......than it is to do a lot of things in soccer we talk about.

Sigh......now that I've hijacked the thread and bored/ticked everyone off......


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: jimmy2469]
      #152595 - 06/02/11 05:15 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I am with you sandman, soccer skills are not harder to learn then being a QB, WR, or basketball player. Apologizes to the football lineman out there. Each sport requires a base set of attributes. Soccer is a fast and quick guy (for field players), football is size and speed, etc. Given a kids desire and a coaches skill, shouldn't the rest be teachable?




I'll bet you could get a pickup game of flag football between football players on one side and soccer players on the other. Then have a second pickup game......of soccer. Soccer players versus football players.

Who do you really think would do better.....an outside middie trying to catch a 20 yard pass? Or a linebacker trying to dribble the ball at top speed under pressure?



Agreed, but take 5 soccer players from the Academy, that only play soccer, and have them play basketball against Calhoun County and the soccer players might not score a single basket in an entire game.




Why wouldn't they score?


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152596 - 06/02/11 05:18 PM

First preface it with you have to be athletic to begin with. Next apply the idea that at each level there is a physical ability (gift) that will allow you to excell even though you have not mastered the skills. That is why a HS coach will take a 6'7" kid and get him to play Basket Ball in HS he is a star even though he just started playing. How about the college coach who gets the 7'2" kid from africa (Manute Bull ring a bell) who know little of basket ball but with his gift he can be taught to become a solid college player (in his case even get some pro time). Remeber when Renaldo ("Skeets") Nehemiah one of the fastest track men of his time (who never played Fb in college) got signed by the 49's? He was signed on his speed alone (gift). He was a PRO football player just because he was fast period (ok could catch, some oh and he got a superbowl ring!) he had ZERO FB skills before that! Tell me what world class athlete (non soccer player)you think could walk on to one of the top 5 soccer teams in the world????

I am saying at the base level I could take a 6'9" (or a 6'5" 295lbs) HS kid from overseas who has never played FB or BB and make a better BasketBall or Football player in 1 preseason than I could taking a cross county star who has never played soccer. Will I make them a QB or shooting guard, not likely but they will be able to contribute as a Center/PWR FWD or maybe a D or O lineman or maybe a TE.

Edited by The Chief (06/02/11 05:21 PM)


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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: The Chief]
      #152597 - 06/02/11 06:01 PM

chief, enough with the few exceptions, your few examples are ridiculous. will that same coach hustle the 5'8 kid to hoops?
soccer skills are a project that takes yrs to build to move on to elite, college/ pros.
i submit that baseball/hoops & the skilled positions of fball, qb, wr, rb need at least as much work & bodystyle & i also submit that basic baseball & hoop skills are the hardest & most frustrating that most will never grasp even at the yutes level.
soccer is the default that most kids can gain confidence & build on from a young age. i've had a few kids with no hand/eye in baseball/hoops that are now doing very well at the elite soccer level...hows that for exceptions?
granted, those baseball/hoops players would never make elite soccer but could probably blend in at the classic level after a few months of training depending on their bodystyle of course.
what soccer star on college level could or has played baseball, hoops or fball, besides field goals?...right back at you.
many different skill sets demanded from all the many different sports, but the hand/eye skill required to succeed at a yth elite baseball/hoops & above remains the hardest imho.

Edited by sandman (06/02/11 06:13 PM)


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152598 - 06/02/11 06:08 PM

Quote:

Why wouldn't they score?




I have it on good authority (goldeneagle86) that any CESA team would score more points than any Academy team, and probably would win.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152605 - 06/02/11 09:10 PM

Quote:

what soccer star on college level could or has played baseball, hoops or fball, besides field goals?...right back at you.
many different skill sets demanded from all the many different sports, but the hand/eye skill required to succeed at a yth elite baseball/hoops & above remains the hardest imho.




Seems like a shifting target to me. You asked about skills being easily learned. I gave you an example of Zero skill guy playing for a superbowl team. Now you want to take that to mean I think soccer is harder to master? No way! Here is where you and I can meet an agremment, yes mastering Baseball skills (hand-eye) or Basketball Hand-eye-while running full speed skill are more more challenging to master.

On the part of the question about college level soccer stars playing one of the big three sports... Well DAH if they were good enough to play one of those three they would be there already getting more money and cars from boosters than any soccer kid will every get


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Big Daddy]
      #152607 - 06/02/11 09:28 PM

Quote:

Why wouldn't they score?




Though this thread has played out, I want to answer. CC is a 2A school that presses the entire game with no letup.


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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: The Chief]
      #152608 - 06/02/11 09:38 PM

A lot good points being made, some went in a different direction. All of us can agree that a young kid can get many skills sets and learn by playing different sports. I would argue that basketball and soccer have more in common then you think. 1. decision making, or speed of play. both very important. 2. zone and man defense. 3. moving with out the ball. 4. reading the game. 5. transition or counter attacking. 6. momentum change/swing. 7. How to protect a lead/come back for a win. 8 etc.

Now if you think playing QB or OL is easy , think again. How many of you , that played, can tell the difference b/w cover 1, 2, 3,4, 2 man, man free, man under, and then be able to read the blitz package, and coverage change when a blitz is coming. Now you only get 25 sec to call play get to line and look at defense and figure all that out. sounds easy right? Now the OL guy has so much more to do, odd front, even front, LB coming, is he in a 1, 2, 2I,3,4,4I,5, 6, 9 tech? Confused yet? Now if the DL shifts or stunts on the snap, wow now what do you do?
I will stop here, I have had enough fun. But if a 12 year old wants to try another sport, I believe he should be allowed to do that. I also believe that the other coaches should work with that child. When the get older if they want to focus on only one sport then so be it. But how many of you can play other sports well? I can tell you that a lot of soccer kids can not judge a ball in the air. Why is that?


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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: The Chief]
      #152609 - 06/02/11 09:59 PM

Quote:

Quote:

what soccer star on college level could or has played baseball, hoops or fball, besides field goals?...right back at you.
many different skill sets demanded from all the many different sports, but the hand/eye skill required to succeed at a yth elite baseball/hoops & above remains the hardest imho.




Seems like a shifting target to me. You asked about skills being easily learned. I gave you an example of Zero skill guy playing for a superbowl team. Now you want to take that to mean I think soccer is harder to master? No way! Here is where you and I can meet an agremment, yes mastering Baseball skills (hand-eye) or Basketball Hand-eye-while running full speed skill are more more challenging to master.

On the part of the question about college level soccer stars playing one of the big three sports... Well DAH if they were good enough to play one of those three they would be there already getting more money and cars from boosters than any soccer kid will every get




well duh, which is my point, soccer is for the avg joe that generally doesn't have the body for hoops, baseball, fball.
maybe we've been arguing the same point is my uneducated guess.


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RECCOS
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152610 - 06/02/11 10:04 PM

Quote:

having coached yth baseball, hoops & soccer, soccer was always the default sport that we would guide those boys/girls into when we knew the hand/eye coordination was too frustrating for them. everyone can run & kick a ball & can usually experience some success at the yth level, & gain confidence to work hard & move up, ... baseball & hoops...not so much.




And therein lies the problem with soccer in our country!

Sandman .... shhhh.


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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: RECCOS]
      #152611 - 06/02/11 10:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

having coached yth baseball, hoops & soccer, soccer was always the default sport that we would guide those boys/girls into when we knew the hand/eye coordination was too frustrating for them. everyone can run & kick a ball & can usually experience some success at the yth level, & gain confidence to work hard & move up, ... baseball & hoops...not so much.




And therein lies the problem with soccer in our country!

Sandman .... shhhh.




exactly, lets pay coaches & doc's a very comfortable living to make us parents feel good at the watercooler monday morning about our kids who wouldn't get off the xbox & their lazy az to play a sport if we weren't paying top $ to get a warm fuzzy & bragging rights.
sorry but you will never convince me that the current state of yth sports makes sense.


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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach J]
      #152612 - 06/02/11 10:26 PM

Quote:

I can tell you that a lot of soccer kids can not judge a ball in the air. Why is that?




A little experience with baseball/softball works wonders for that.

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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach Chass]
      #152613 - 06/02/11 10:31 PM

one of my biggest coaching secrets is never put a player in goal that hasn't played hoops, vball, baseball or softball.


can't go wrong with that rule.


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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152614 - 06/02/11 10:41 PM

Seriously, it helps...basketball works on quick hands, and baseball/softball teach judging that ball in the air...when a keeper has played in the outfield, they understand that concept of "high fly ball, your first step is backwards" and they don't get chipped nearly as often. When it's sailing over their heads into the net and I say, "Hey, have you ever played baseball/softball?" and they just look at me funny, I know we're in for a long session.

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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach Chass]
      #152615 - 06/02/11 11:04 PM

Quote:

Seriously, it helps...basketball works on quick hands, and baseball/softball teach judging that ball in the air...when a keeper has played in the outfield, they understand that concept of "high fly ball, your first step is backwards" and they don't get chipped nearly as often. When it's sailing over their heads into the net and I say, "Hey, have you ever played baseball/softball?" and they just look at me funny, I know we're in for a long session.



i've suffered thro the past 2 seasons with a very game keeper that would take a bullet for the team, but no hands to speak of, never played a hands sport, depth perception or figuring out that chip or long ball is nill. my fullbacks hate me when i give the bs halftime speech that its never the keepers fault.
i sleep with one eye open.


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Cainhoy Athletic
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: sandman]
      #152618 - 06/03/11 12:00 AM

Best thing I ever did for my eldest daughter's soccer game was sign her up for a winter basketball season when she was 8 or 9.

The small space, constant activity, bustle, and physical contact completely changed her style of play the next spring. More agressive, assertive, and willing to engage quickly.

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The Chief
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach J]
      #152619 - 06/03/11 06:38 AM

Your Pop Warner team works on line stunts and audibles with shifting D-back coverage!? Kids have so much more to learn these days! Next we'll be teaching Calculus and Chemistry in third grade! I miss the days when kids could play three sports and have fun all year while learning lot of different skills, guess those days are gone forever.

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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: The Chief]
      #152620 - 06/03/11 06:41 AM

You joke, but our honors kids are earning high school credits starting in 7th grade now...we keep pushing them farther earlier.

Reminds me from a quote from Willa Cather back around the turn of the 20th Century...

"Men travel faster now, but I do not know if they go to better things."

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The Chief
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach Chass]
      #152623 - 06/03/11 07:51 AM

Yes, I know and there are 9th graders earning AP credits too only a matter of time till someone figures there is not much difference between 9th and 8th graders sop why not let them too. Soon after we can start IB program in 6th grade and kids can graduate HS and college at same time . Of course they will not have time for HS sports so it will be a good thing they can just do Academy! Thought I should get a little back on topic.

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Hurst66
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: The Chief]
      #152624 - 06/03/11 08:09 AM

Shagging fly balls is not just beneficial for keepers. Half the girls playing in the field can't judge a ball when they challenge for a header.

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The Chief
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Hurst66]
      #152625 - 06/03/11 08:46 AM

Heck even when they are not challenged it seems girls miss/ miss hit the ball at least half the time! Funny how much better boys are at getting the headers than the girls are. Maybe becasue they start heading it sooner than the girls do they pick up the timing sooner. (IMHO)

Edited by The Chief (06/03/11 08:48 AM)


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Coach J
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: The Chief]
      #152626 - 06/03/11 09:11 AM

Chief, I do not coach pop Warner, I coach HS ball, and yes 7 and 8, and 9th grader can learn all that, if you have good coaches! B-team football starts at 7th grade in this state.

I was just making the point that playing QB or OL is a lot harder then you think, just having a little fun.


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Coach Chass
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Hurst66]
      #152630 - 06/03/11 12:13 PM

Of course, to be fair to the Academy side of the argument, we are talking about how playing multiple sports can help players master new skills in soccer...which does not necessarily address those who have already risen to mastery of their basic skills and are looking to further fine-tune them in a concentrated environment. I wouldn't suggest baseball or basketball as a way to turn a great soccer player into a world-class soccer player, but they can be a big help in developing the skills that made them great players in the first place.

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The Chief
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach J]
      #152631 - 06/03/11 12:19 PM

I totally got your point. Same thing with being a catcher in baseball, intellectually the hardest position in Baseball thats why so many go on to coach.

But let me ask you which 8th grader you would rather have a 5' 165lb kid with great understanding of playing O line (from his years in peewee and pop warner ball) or a 6' 215 lb farm kid who is an athlete but has never played O line in his life but wants to learn? Can ones skills off set the others physical advantage?


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TSO
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: The Chief]
      #152635 - 06/03/11 01:28 PM

If the 3 months of high school season really stops a player's progress, then why not convert to a 12 month academy season? Wouldn't those 2 months off (with no soccer at all) be just as harmful? Who cares about getting burned out and never having a vacation.

Personally, I don't think the 3 months makes that big of a difference. 2 hour practices a few times a week over 3 months isn't enough to make a drastic difference. I still think that the best players are so good because of how much time they spent by themselves practicing when no one else was without a coach rather than going to team practices.

Someone mentioned Messi moving to Barca at 14. Doesn't the fact he moved there so young prove he was an elite talent? Should we really credit him moving there as the reason he is so good? I think he would be amazing regardless of when he moved. Neymar is another. Lukaku is still in high school and playing professionally. And since the thread has turned into which sport is easiest, doesn't the fact that there are high school aged kids playing professional soccer kind of show it is the easiest? Players like Wilshere, Neymar, Lukaku, C. Ronaldo were all making impacts before graduating HS (assuming they didn't drop out). Can't think of any other sport where that happens, partly because the other sports require more size and athleticism along with skill.

And how big of an impact has the academy had on developing players? Are the teams really good because they just go get the best players, or are they dramatically improving the players skills? Will be years before that is answered, but players like Caleb, Erik Clark, Nestor, Koty, Dunbaker, etc. were all identified as great players years ago. It is only natural as they continued to age, they got better and remained some of the better players. How much of that is due to academy coaching compared to just being gifted?

Players like Messi and Ronaldo were going to be superstars regardless of where they played and who they were coached by as a U18.


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Coach J
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: TSO]
      #152639 - 06/03/11 11:09 PM

Chief I Would take both! The bigger kid is going to DL!

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SCSoccerFan8
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Coach J]
      #152645 - 06/04/11 11:32 AM

Happy Daddy or anyone else,

Is there a list of the high schools with players currently represented on South Carolina Academy teams available anywhere? If not would someone please provide it here?

Thank you.


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Mike Hazel
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: SCSoccerFan8]
      #152720 - 06/08/11 03:09 PM

Just to add to one of the above posts
Wes Knight played for Wren, the College of Charleston and now for Vancouver in the MLS.


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Backscreen17
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Mike Hazel]
      #152722 - 06/08/11 03:48 PM

TSO: A big part of the "problem" is our haste to identify/anoint "prospects" at ridiculously early ages, often to the exclusion of kids who are BETTER later. Then, as if to justify the early selections, we continue to select and promote those same kids, year after year after year, even when they don't age/grow/mature into high-level athletes.

This is NOT a knock on any of these you've named. They're NOT the problem. The problem is a system that effectively discourages and excludes thousands of kids by ages 10-12.


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SoccerLooney
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Backscreen17]
      #152829 - 06/13/11 12:34 AM

Texas and Northwest Academies go to 10 month season - No High School Soccer

Wow! I hadn't seen this. Looks like Texas and the Northwest academies are following South Cal's lead.

From the article:--

In the Northwest, some clubs had already experimented with a longer season, but with every club now on board, the schedule can be more defined and consistent. What has never been in question, according to Crossfire Premier Director of Coaching Bernie James, is that this model will benefit the elite players in the Development Academy program.

“It’s pretty simple really,” said Bernie James. “If you practice and play with better players, you are going to be challenged more and, in turn, you’ll get better. Losing such a big piece of our time together, three to four months really, to the high school season was difficult in keeping continuity for the players and for our team. If you’re talking about the top kids in the area, which the Academy teams are now, playing with other teams and competitions just doesn’t work as well for them from a player development standpoint.”
...
As other parts of the country explore ways to raise the player development bar even higher, almost half of the 78 current Academy teams are looking into longer seasons and other options that optimize the environment for the players.



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Warrior
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: SoccerLooney]
      #152830 - 06/13/11 07:29 AM

I think the U.S. should follow whatever model Panama has implemented.

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Chantman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Warrior]
      #152831 - 06/13/11 07:32 AM

Quote:

I think the U.S. should follow whatever model Panama has implemented.




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sandman
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Re: Academy Players Can't Play High School Soon? [Re: Warrior]
      #152850 - 06/13/11 04:44 PM

Quote:

I think the U.S. should follow whatever model Panama has implemented.




but then who gets overpaid?


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